Sorry...AC hose question

[brads911sc]

Good point. I modified my post. Sorry if I offended.

Originally Posted by SilberUrS6

Meh, personal political affilation doesn't matter at all. No need to drag that argument into it.

Nobody in their right mind will follow wwest's advice.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by SilberUrS6

Meh, personal political affilation doesn't matter at all. No need to drag that argument into it.

He doesn't grasp the fact - FACT - that not everyone is comfortable in a 78-degree cabin. He applies that standard as though it is *the* standard. The arrogance is breath-taking.

Quite clearly you do not grasp, understand, all the various parameters that must be reasonably in balance for human comfort. More than 95% of the human population would consider themselves comfortable at 78F provided other factors are also in balance. Primary among those would be MRT, Mean Radient Temperature. You can have the cabin atmosphere at 68F (discomforting for the majority of us), but if the MRT is out of balance you will remain discomforted.

If the interiors of our cars get much above 75, my wife starts complaining, LOL.

Not if the outside is <45F...But I digress..

At 75F your wife will not be complaining if the MRT portion of the equation is in balance, no more radient heat INCOMING, roughly, than her body "radiates."

wwest's idiotic idea would have her scowling at me for the entire trip.

No, lowering the cabin's atmospheric, AIR temperature, can NEVER fully compensate for an out of balance MRT. Window tint, a more reflective interior surface, GOOD rooftop thermal insulation, and yes, exterior reflective color, will all help.

Think about her response if you were to ask her to sit still in that <34F vent airflow that so many "tout" for more than the time it takes to cool down the cabin atmosphere AND the cabin interior "surround".

My wife would be asking, and often does, ask me to select the footwell outflow mode (996, LS400) if the outlet airflow is sustained at a low level for an extended period. That's partially why I removed the "bow tie" airflow restriction, restrictor.


This is one place where wwest is so incredibly WRONG that it makes the rest of his crusade against Kuehl laughable. We get Houston-like temperatures around here for a week. Or two. Per year. And NONE of the humidity. We are in the single-digit humidity numbers around here often enough in the summer. Where if you're in the sun, 105 degrees is pretty damn hot. But in the shade, it's not too bad. There really is something to the saying "it's a dry heat". You guys have it tough. 100+ for weeks on end, plus humidity.

No way my modest mods could keep up with that kind of heat.

How many times do we have to discuss the fact that you got SUCKERED by Kuehl?

Yes, you needed more refrigerant condensor capacity, get over it. And since our Porsche's A/C is always in recirculate mode the humidity factor is much less an issue.

What does wwest suggest? WINDOW TINTING??? WTF.

Only, NO.

And..if live in a HOT and HUMID climate, and you happen to be shopping for a 911 of this era you should lean toward more reflective color shades, interior and exterior. Triple Black....NOT!

What a stupid idea.

Obviously you haven't spent much time driving around in climates like Phoenix or Tucson.

"..stupid idea..." Only, apparently, from your standpoint. Look at how busy, and profitable, these shops are in the climatic area of interest..and 3M iss one of the primary manufacturers, yet..reflective, ceramic, color matched...

Change the interior color? Does he think that somehow you can get that done for some number LESS than a full kit from Kuehl?

I know of several owners that use sheepskin seat covers for "this" very reason, and then there are the aftermarket dash covers. I suppose you don't even approve of those windshield reflective "shades" for use when parked out in bright sunlight.

Guess I made a big mistake sponsoring those as handouts for TeamSeattle(.com) at the 24 hours of Daytona.

Maybe, but you'd have to both patient AND lucky. Both of those suggestions are idiotic on their face. In order to avoid spending a few bucks for higher-performance AC,

Higher performance AC alone can never, in climates of concern, bring the human comfort equation into balance.

you're going to decrease your night-time safety (tint) and spend thousands to change the color of your interior. Stupid. Stupid. STU. PID.

I'm quite sure, certain, that if that were the case, decreased safety, then the automotive insurance industry would be all over the matter.

Oh, and add to that a switch and some fans. LOL, talk about a jury-rigged set-up.

Nobody in their right mind will follow wwest's advice.

YOU WISH...!

Wow...

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by brads911sc

Good point. I modified my post. Sorry if I offended.

It didn't offend me, but adding it to the list of crap that wwest can use to change the subject is tactically a bad idea.

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by Richwro1

Wow! This is getting nasty. Well, my main point is this. Some folks like to experiment and play and yes maybe save a few bucks and feel like they made it happen. Nothing wrong with that. I also agree the zims solution is cheaper and better than what I have. But, I only want to do this one time and get the most benefit. To me, my hard earned money going into a system that I believe from all these postings, works, is better than piece fixing to hope it works. With that, we are all free to go our ways. With that, you all keep up this good thread, it's fantastic entertainment! I really do appreciate all this info. You are all a wealth of knowledge. Thanks much!

It's only nasty because wwest feels the need to verbally defecate on Griff at every opportunity. Mostly, these threads give you a clue about who really knows their business, and who really doesn't. In that way, wwest's posts have some value, well, apart from entertainment value.

Mostly, if you do the opposite of what wwest suggests, you'll probably be fine. And, you'll spend the least money to the greatest benefit.

[brads911sc]

What I dont get is why he is so committed to destroying Griffiths. There is more to his motivation... one day it will come out.

For example, a complete kit from Retroaire and Rennaire are the close to the same price as Griffiths. Yet he never mentions those by name. This is unusual behavior. Rennaire wont answer an email. Kits come with no warranty or instructions, and support is non-existant. All these kits do the same thing. They all have their improved evap. improved condensers, improved compressor, improved hoses, improved evap fan.

For example, there are those that bash motor meister, yet these are all former customers who have been screwed. Every one who has ever bought a Griff kit says it works. None of his former customers are disgruntled. So he isnt just adding to the internet war of words. Everyone that argues with WWEST in ANY thread is either someone who understands AC systems and offers proof that his theories are bunk, or are customers who are happy with their result.

For example, there are many products that have marginal benefit. which seems to be WWEST theory. KN Filters come to mind. Yet these threads are short, with a few for and a few against. Nothing really so tainted and angry. If you dont believe the claims you dont buy it. the threads end there. Yet everyone who has bought the GRIFF products say that it works. so this doesnt even fit that group. In fact in thread after thread, its only WWEST as the naysayer. Not like there is a ground swell of Anti Griff sentiment.

Seems to be some secret axe to grind? Perhaps Griff refused to participate in the WWEST reach around, or perhaps he bought competing products that dont work as well, of perhaps he is paid by a competitor to trash Griff, or perhaps he is just a idiot who doesnt understand AC who only trashes griff because griff is the only one who will defend himself. Very strange behavior.

Originally Posted by SilberUrS6

It's only nasty because wwest feels the need to verbally defecate on Griff at every opportunity. Mostly, these threads give you a clue about who really knows their business, and who really doesn't. In that way, wwest's posts have some value, well, apart from entertainment value.

Mostly, if you do the opposite of what wwest suggests, you'll probably be fine. And, you'll spend the least money to the greatest benefit.

[Richwro1]

fully understand the frustration with WWest. As they say, its all about the messaging. Anyway, in a strange way, all this ongoing stuff actually helped me to make my decision. I'll be calling to price our a once and for all solution to keep be Kuel!
For me, it was all worthwhile, and continues to be!

[wwest]

Originally Posted by brads911sc

What I dont get is why he is so committed to destroying Griffiths. There is more to his motivation... one day it will come out.

For example, a complete kit from Retroaire and Rennaire are the close to the same price as Griffiths. Yet he never mentions those by name.

This is unusual behavior.

No, NOT. Kuehl was the only reputable repondant (Or so I though at he time)that came out right away being negative about my suggested soluton.

Rennaire wont answer an email. Kits come with no warranty or instructions, and support is non-existant. All these kits do the same thing. They all have their improved evap. improved condensers, improved compressor, improved hoses, improved evap fan.

For example, there are those that bash motor meister, yet these are all former customers who have been screwed. Every one who has ever bought a Griff kit says it wor


according the customer comments section maybe ONLY those that also purchased the condensor/fan assembly.

None of his former customers are disgruntled.

And if the clear majority were disgrunted just how would YOU know. Unless you have some sort of direct line which make you a SHILL for certain sure.

So he isnt just adding to the internet war of words. Everyone that argues with WWEST in ANY thread is either someone who understands AC systems and offers proof that his theories are bunk, or are customers who are happy with their result.

For example, there are many products that have marginal benefit. which seems to be WWEST theory. KN Filters come to mind. Yet these threads are short, with a few for and a few against. Nothing really so tainted and angry.

If you dont believe the claims you dont buy it. the threads end there. Yet everyone who has bought the GRIFF products say that it works. so this doesnt even fit that group. In fact in thread after thread, its only WWEST as the naysayer.

Naysayer..?? Only in the context of Kuehl's apparent efforts, marketing efforts, to sell the less usefull, high margins products, FIRST. And then when that proves unsatisfactory become the "white knight" by offering the REAL solution.

Not like there is a ground swell of Anti Griff sentiment.

Seems to be some secret axe to grind?

No secret, Kuehl has, is, belittling my suggested solution only because if widely adopted it would hurt his bottom line. While I have come out in support of Kuehl's product set (mostly***) as long as the extra condensor/fan is initally considered.

*** Kuehl's front condensor design, hurricane blower, and new evaporator, should all be considered POS, snake oil, purely. Buy his condensor/fan assembly, use the trinary pressure switch power the new fan 24/7 as needed, and his "barrier" hose sales might even become snake oil.

Perhaps Griff refused to participate in the WWEST reach around, or perhaps he bought competing products that dont work as well, of perhaps he is paid by a competitor to trash Griff, or perhaps he is just a idiot who doesnt understand AC who only trashes griff because griff is the only one who will defend himself. Very strange behavior.

Other than the argument that the addition of the radiator fans might result in the engine running hotter, what theories are in oppostion?

The same can be said for the theoretical use of the trinary switch to prevent the system from EVER going overpressure, what theories exist against..??

[brads911sc]

Are you on Crack?

You never advocated additional Condenser / Fans until yesterday! When you realized that they could be had for $500! LOL and you have never been in support of any of Kuelhs product. Would you like me to post the 200 or so posts you made stating the opposite for our readers to see??

Originally Posted by wwest

While I have come out in support of Kuehl's product set (mostly***) as long as the extra condensor/fan is initally considered.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by brads911sc

Are you on Crack?

You never advocated additional Condenser / Fans until yesterday! When you realized that they could be had for $500! LOL and you have never been in support of any of Kuelhs product. Would you like me to post the 200 or so posts you made stating the opposite for our readers to see??

Speachless..

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by brads911sc

Are you on Crack?

You never advocated additional Condenser / Fans until yesterday! When you realized that they could be had for $500! LOL and you have never been in support of any of Kuelhs product. Would you like me to post the 200 or so posts you made stating the opposite for our readers to see??

Yes, this was quite the turnaround. First wwest says you don't need anything that Griff sells, then all of a sudden 'Oh, well, yes - of course you need a fender condenser.' One of wwest's beefs is that if everyone added fans and a switch, then barrier hose wouldn't be needed, due to this phantom system overpressure that only wwest knows about. This is what's known as circular reasoning. Without any form of proof, wwest claims overpressure is the cause of refrigerant loss. Oh, and of course, none ould actually leak out in bulk, but it would be because of the added high-side pressure inside the hose. That he has no evidence for. But wait - a solution! Yes, folks, if you just cool off the condensers, then you magically stop losing refrigerant! Let's look at this, shall we? Add $200 in fans, or $200 in hoses and o-rings. Looks like a wash to me, and wonder of wonders - no more leaks. Why is wwest's solution better? It isn't. But they both accomplish the same thing, IF and only if, wwest's claim about high-side pressure rise is valid. Without proof, I don't believe it because of all the other stupid stuff he claims.

He makes the most stupid claims about driers, without knowing anything about WHY you replace a drier when you replace refrigerant type. He claims the cavitation happens in air, and not only that, at evap blower speeds. LMAO. He makes claims that 78 degrees is *the* level of comfort, and then, after saying all this patently stupid stuff, he pretends like he knows something about Griff's motivations.

Something I hadn't considered previously - mental illness. Brad, that would answer some questions, for sure.

[wwest]

Posted 03/06/2013

Originally Posted by wrinkledpants

Have you yet proved you're right?

No, but on the other hand NO ONE has of yet been able to prove me wrong.

Why not find a local car with an upgraded AC system, get a cheap digital IR thermometer, and compare them? Shouldn't be too hard to do once the temps warm up. I'll even supply the thermometer. For how much crap you take over this topic, seems like the least you could do to clear your name.

The doubters, naysayers, do not, generally, take issue with the solution insofar as it working here in the PNW. The doubts seem to arise with regards to the use in TX, etc.

My problem is that I tend to agree with them on that point moreso than otherwise. I am in the process of arranging for the '88 to spend the summer in Olive Branch MS as a way to at least approach some level of proof of the viability of the solution.

If your car can't compete with an upgraded AC at idle - then I think you have your answer.

".. can't compete.."

I am fairly comfortable that either car, FULL Kuehl upgrade (coupe, equivalent interior/tint), and my '88 with the rear deck fans and with the front condensor fan disabled, could both sustain, in equivalent climatic environments, a comfortable cabin once the cabin has reached the comfort level, 72-75F, and at equal temperature/blower settings.
Posted 03/06/2013..

The question then becomes how fast might either of those bring the cabin atmosphere down to the comfort level from a high of, say, 120F.

I would even bet that an equivalent car with ONLY the addition of Kuehl's fender mounted condensor/fan would match the performance of either of the above for sustaining the cabin temperature.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by SilberUrS6

Yes, this was quite the turnaround. First wwest says you don't need anything that Griff sells, then all of a sudden 'Oh, well, yes - of course you need a fender condenser.' One of wwest's beefs is that if everyone added fans and a switch, then barrier hose wouldn't be needed, due to this phantom system overpressure that only wwest knows about. This is what's known as circular reasoning.

Without any form of proof, wwest claims overpressure is the cause of refrigerant loss.

Claimed..? I don't think so, suspect, theoririse, yes. But a question for youse, if not pressure, over-pressure, then what? The number of cars using this same hose out numbers Porsche by what. over a million to one? And not even single instance of non-barrier hoses being the cause of refrigerant leakage. But then how many of those either have BOVs or pressure switch compressor control?

Oh, and of course, none ould actually leak out in bulk, but it would be because of the added high-side pressure inside the hose. That he has no evidence for.

Other than the industry-wide use of BOVs, "fuses", or pressure switch that alleviated the problem for MILLION of vehicles using the very same type of hose.

But wait - a solution! Yes, folks, if you just cool off the condensers, then you magically stop losing refrigerant!

Or..add a BOV, a "fuse" or a pressure switch to control the compressor.

Let's look at this, shall we? Add $200 in fans, or $200 in hoses and o-rings. Looks like a wash to me,

"..a wash.." No, the hoses ONLY stop the leakage, the fans also help to bring the A/C up to "snuff".

and wonder of wonders - no more leaks. Why is wwest's solution better?

Wwest solution...2+2 = 4

Kuehl's new hoses...2 + 0 = 2

It isn't. But they both accomplish the same thing, IF and only if, wwest's claim about high-side pressure rise is valid.

Without proof, I don't believe it because of all the other stupid stuff he claims.

That's actually a break-through admission.

He makes the most stupid claims about driers, without knowing anything about WHY you replace a drier when you replace refrigerant type.

He claims the cavitation happens in air, and not only that, at evap blower speeds.

So now we're finally admitting that cavitation can occur in any "fluid"... LMAO.

But no, not "blower speeds", airflow rate/velocity/etc, but the airflow rate/velocity and turbulence at/near the boundary air level, surface, of the squirrel cage blower wheel vanes. Like the marine propellar, where the water, FLUID, cannot possibly move as fast, along with, the advancing propellar blade, so a high level of turbulance, NOISE, results, enough to actually separate the hydrogen and oxygen components..

He makes claims that 78 degrees is *the* level of comfort,

It actually is, do some reading...STUDY.

and then, after saying all this patently stupid stuff, he pretends like he knows something about Griff's motivations.

Something I hadn't considered previously - mental illness. Brad, that would answer some questions, for sure.

Which one of you is "Frack"? The other must be "Freck"...

Or is it Stan and Ollie..?