AC Compressor Hose Help

[kuehl]

Originally Posted by jimthe1st

I would visit Home Depot first for a newe "nut" and ferrule..

A nut and ferrule won't cure this type of hose fitting configuration.

He needs to remove the old fitting, place on a new 90 degree bead lock FM o-ring style fitting with the R12 schrader valve option on the existing hose, crimp, use a new #8 o-ring at the compressor side, and swap over the pressure switch. The existing flare fitting at the condenser side will re-seal as it is aluminum.

Replace drier.

Add 1-2 ounces of refrigerant oil to system.

Evacuate, charge and test.

[wwest]

Isn't it pretty much factual that evacuating, pulling a HARD vacuum, will "dry" the dryer desiccant...??

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by wwest

Isn't it pretty much factual.........

See second to last post in this thread. It is not pretty much factual.

Automotive Air Conditioning Bulletin Board • View topic - receiver dryer "reuse" question

[kuehl]

The terminology 'hard' vacuum is not quantitative, and rather vague; there are arguments that state a hard vacuum is 1 Torr while others state it at .01 Torr.
If you wanted to qualify a 'hard' vacuum you would be in the realm nearing that requiring a McLeod Gauge or Ionization Gauge.

It is easier, here, to refer to vacuum in terms of either Microns or Inches of Mercury; these terms are more commonly found on the gauges, equipment and charts used in Air Conditioning.

Is it 'practical' to attempt to evaporate or remove all of the moisture in a water soaked drier? No, because it is possible to pull a vacuum down deep enough, quick enough, that water liquid turns into a solid (ice) before it 'evaporates' or is removed by the vacuum procedure. Watch Video

And, another issue not often discussed in terms of an evacuation procedure, is for instance when converting from R12 to R134a: for those whom attempt to save a few dollars by not replacing the drier with a new one. Refrigerants become trapped within the refrigerant oil within the drier. Hence, if you think you recovered or evacuated out all of the R12 prior to inserting in R134a, you will be surprised to find that you have not. Refrigerants can remain entrapped within the oil in the drier.

It is SOP (a Standard Operating Practice), to replace a drier when it is old, when changing refrigerant and oil types and after a compressor lock up or seizure.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by kuehl

The terminology 'hard' vacuum is not quantitative;

So let's just consider it a generic, non-definitive term, that will be understood by the public at large, okay?

there are arguments that state a hard vacuum is 1 Torr while others state it at .01 Torr.

It is easier to refer to vacuum in terms of either Torr, Microns, or Inches of Mercury; these terms are more commonly found on the gauges, equipment and charts used in AC.

Is it 'practical' to attempt to evaporate or remove all of the moisture in a water soak drier? No, because it is possible to pull a vacuum down deep enough, quick enough, that water liquid turns into a solid (ice) before it 'evaporates' or is removed by the vacuum procedure.

Assuming the OAT at the "evac" location is well above freezing the only "cause" for the water freezing would be the evaporativer rate of the water itself....

So, yes, a QUICK/DEEP vacuum might well result in freezing a portion of the water in the desiccant....but for how long...?? All of 30 seconds..??

Just remembering the old 7th grade science class trick of freezing a drop of water under a thin glass bowl via rapidly evaporating a bit of ether in the bowl...and how long that water didn't remain frozen in the classroom environment.

And, another issue not often discussed in terms of an evacuation procedure, is for instance when converting from R12 to R134a: for those whom attempt to save a few dollars by not replacing the drier with a new one. Refrigerants become trapped within the refrigerant oil within the drier. Hence, if you think you recovered or evacuated out all of the R12 prior to inserting in R134a, you will be surprised to find that you have not. Refrigerants can remain entrapped within the oil in the drier.

Once again, just what is the detriment in having a small/meager amount of R-12 remaining in the system post evacuation and refill with R-134a.

What would be the "surprise"? How might you EVER know, discover?

So, it is SOP, to replace a drier when it is old and/or when changing refrigerant and oil types.

The subject wasn't a switch in refrigerant, but I do agree. Switching to R-134a one would not only want assurance that the high side pressure cannot exceed the design standards for R-12 but also that a compatible desiccant is used and the only way to do that is replace the dryer with one that for sure has the right desiccant.

[wwest]

From: Theresa Mendez-Devine
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2013 12:39:05 -0500
Subject: FW: R/D 10108C
To: wwest

All UAC receiver/dryers and accumulators are compatible with R-12 or R134A
and, the desiccant that is used is XH-7 or XH-9

Theresa Mendez-Devine
Internaitonal/Domestic Sales
1441 Heritage Parkway
Mansfield, TX 76063
817-740-3903


-----Original Message-----
From: Theresa Mendez-Devine [mailto:Theresa.Mendez-Devine@uacparts.com]
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 12:03 PM
To: 'james.campbell@uacparts.com'
Subject: FW: R/D 10108C



Theresa Mendez-Devine
Internaitonal/Domestic Sales
1441 Heritage Parkway
Mansfield, TX 76063
817-740-3903


Friday, August 23, 2013 11:49 AM
To: uacsales@uacparts.com
Subject: R/D 10108C

Is this part R-134a compatible...?

Which dessicant is used?

WWest

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by kuehl

The comments I post are for the forum readers, not for you.

I think the rest of us naysayers and deputy naysayers should chill on adding our opinions.

Just a thought.

I will chill if you will chill.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by kuehl

Wwest, I'm not going to debate your comments here and waste the forum community's time and PP's bandwidth. However, if you are going to post nonsense that confuses readers
or make statements that are unclear, non factual, are just for debate, or are simply an attempt to discredit another, I suggest you refrain.

The comments I post are for the forum readers, not for you.

It would be extremely helpful for ALL, myself included, if you would take the time to refute, in some definitive detail, whatever I say that you think to be nonsense, non-factual, or confusing, rather than making this type of "blanket" statement.

And I very much doubt that PP is overly worried, if at all, about bandwidth use.

No harm in a good, healthy, debate.


My statements have been for clarification of issues, not for descrediting, nor belittling, anyone.

[GH85Carrera]

Aw man, Wwest is back

That is a shame.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by kuehl

The terminology 'hard' vacuum is not quantitative; there are arguments that state a hard vacuum is 1 Torr while others state it at .01 Torr.


It is easier to refer to vacuum in terms of either Torr, Microns, or Inches of Mercury; these terms are more commonly found on the gauges, equipment and charts used in AC.

If the above statements weren't made to/for me, then who?

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

Aw man, Wwest is back

That is a shame.

How WAS your weekend looking before this?

[kuehl]

Originally Posted by Bob Kontak

How WAS your weekend looking before this?

Week end looks good on this side of the road.

Just got a new pulley on the supercharger,
7psi pushing on 9.5:1 with 3.5lit LN Nickies,
Toasted 2 WRX rice rockets last night.
Friggin kids, lol, they see the "Historic" tags on
my 87-911 jalopy and think..... (lol).

Weather is great, time to hit the links.

Life is Good!

Enjoy yours

[wwest]

Originally Posted by kuehl

It's rhetorical at this juncture, however let's try one more time:

statements that are unclear = a HARD vacuum

The terminology 'hard' vacuum is not quantitative; there are arguments that state a hard vacuum is 1 Torr while others state it at .01 Torr.
It is easier to refer to vacuum in terms of either Torr, Microns, or Inches of Mercury; these terms are more commonly found on the gauges, equipment and charts used in AC.

Knowing that the clear majority of our audience would take the term as being generic to the forum subject matter I saw, and still see, no need to be definitive beyond that.

The forum subject matter is not electronic e-beam technology, only about pulling a "hard" vacuum on an automotive A/C system.

If there was anyone other than yourself that needed more definitive term(s) please accept my sincerest apology.

[Ronnie's.930]

Just aim a SPAL fan at the broken hose end and call it a day!

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by wwest

If the above statements weren't made to/for me, then who?

Who the hell do you think you are to deserve any recognition, you pompous ninny?

I'll be a moderator. Ol' fat ass Bob will look after the crap that goes down here.

Jesus H Christ, you were totally ignored on other websites after getting banned and now you are back in the saddle here (a robust user base) and you are pulling the same crap but without directly bashing Griff.

[Bob Kontak]

I just sent a note to Wayne requesting moderator status.

This is probably the most robust car forum in the world and it's not tended to effectively.

Edit: This is my final attempt to "tell" on wwest. I think my dry gunpowder is used up for 2013.

[Pazuzu]

Originally Posted by wwest

Knowing that the clear majority of our audience would take the term as being generic to the forum subject matter I saw, and still see, no need to be definitive beyond that.

The forum subject matter is not electronic e-beam technology, only about pulling a "hard" vacuum on an automotive A/C system.

If there was anyone other than yourself that needed more definitive term(s) please accept my sincerest apology.

I'll tell you why pulling a vacuum with a normal A/C type pump will not dry out a dryer. You need to listen, because I have worked with some of the hardest vacuums on Earth, and know how they work. Since I have a definable history with these systems, you can quietly listen to me and not try to refute me, like you do with Keuhl.

A vacuum pump does not pull stuff out of a system, but that's what you (and almost everyone) thinks it does. It instead takes any particle that enters the vacuum pump orifice and sequesters it away from the system (vents to outside). It doesn't pull stuff along the hoses, it just waits for individual molecules to bump into it's orifice. As more and more molecules bump into it, they get removed from the system and the system pressure drops.

Now, molecules are bumping around on each other, on the hose walls, all over. There's lots of them, but they only travel a tiny tiny distance each bump. Eventually (hours) the vacuum pump has sequestered, oh, 99% of the molecules (about 10 Torr, 0.5 inches of mercury) which is pretty reasonable for a A/C type pump in real life. That means that 99% of the molecules are sequestered away, and the path they travel each bump is about 10 times longer.

However...the original travel distance (actually called the Mean Free Path) was...about 100 nanometers. Now, with our "good working vacuum" our mean free path is microns. So, any molecule has to hop along at the rate of microns per hop until it bumps into the vacuum pump orifice. This takes forever, and is not guaranteed even with an infinite amount of time for everything to hop into the pump.

Now, this is only about GAS molecules in an open free space, not water molecules which are actively sealed in the coarse surface of the hoses, dryer, etc (there's not just a physical trap, but they are electrostatically bound to the surface). This makes water molecules extra "heavy" compared to gas molecules, so their effective mean free path is a tiny fraction of the ideal ones shown above.




Basically, for a dryer that is 20 feet of twisting hose away from a weak shop vacuum pump to dry out after being environmentally soaked, would take forever, and even then, you'd probably pick up as much moisture through the porous hose that pump slowly removes.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by Pazuzu

I'll tell you why pulling a vacuum with a normal A/C type pump will not dry out a dryer. You need to listen, because I have worked with some of the hardest vacuums on Earth, and know how they work. Since I have a definable history with these systems, you can quietly listen to me and not try to refute me, like you do with Keuhl.

A vacuum pump does not pull stuff out of a system, but that's what you (and almost everyone) thinks it does. It instead takes any particle that enters the vacuum pump orifice and sequesters it away from the system (vents to outside). It doesn't pull stuff along the hoses, it just waits for individual molecules to bump into it's orifice. As more and more molecules bump into it, they get removed from the system and the system pressure drops.

Sorry, but methinks you be mistaken..

NATURE HATES A VACUUM

Be aware that I have NO personal knowledge of how an A/C vacuum pump actually works internally, despite owning a cheapo HF one. But years ago at Boeing I was responsible for the maintenance of an electron E-Beam welder, three stage pumping system, IIRC.

But like a simple engine lubricating oil pump I suspect the pumping mechanism continuously opens "voids" that just previously did not exist, therefore had very little, or no, content. As the void grows larger and larger, molecules (of whatever medium) rush in to fill the void, vacuum.

So it isn't a matter of "snapping" up atmospheric molecules which randomly happen by as you seem to presume.

Now, molecules are bumping around on each other, on the hose walls, all over. There's lots of them, but they only travel a tiny tiny distance each bump. Eventually (hours) the vacuum pump has sequestered, oh, 99% of the molecules (about 10 Torr, 0.5 inches of mercury) which is pretty reasonable for a A/C type pump in real life. That means that 99% of the molecules are sequestered away, and the path they travel each bump is about 10 times longer.

However...the original travel distance (actually called the Mean Free Path) was...about 100 nanometers. Now, with our "good working vacuum" our mean free path is microns. So, any molecule has to hop along at the rate of microns per hop until it bumps into the vacuum pump orifice. This takes forever, and is not guaranteed even with an infinite amount of time for everything to hop into the pump.

Now, this is only about GAS molecules in an open free space, not water molecules which are actively sealed in the coarse surface of the hoses, dryer, etc (there's not just a physical trap, but they are electrostatically bound to the surface). This makes water molecules extra "heavy" compared to gas molecules, so their effective mean free path is a tiny fraction of the ideal ones shown above.

Basically, for a dryer that is 20 feet of twisting hose away from a weak shop vacuum pump to dry out after being environmentally soaked, would take forever, and even then, you'd probably pick up as much moisture through the porous hose that pump slowly removes.

It sounds as if you have never seen a fully "crumpled up, "compacted" fuel tank due to being fully sealed and a blocked fuel pump return line.

Fuel pump suction doesn't stop at liquid or atmospheric molecular content it "wants" the metal tank walls to "come" to it also.

A vacuum pump is simply a reverse form of the pump you use to pressurize your tires...

Atmospheric molecules RUSH in, in GREAT haste, to fill the VOID created by the inlet side of the pump mechanism's volume as it becomes greater and greater. Much like a gear type engine lubricating oil pump.

And the subject matter of the moment is if the ordinary A/C vacuum pump can DRY out the desiccant in a R/D, not if it can SUCK molecules of water that have permeated the hose walls. Also, the base idea, reason, for having the desiccant is to give it first chance at "snapping" up those water molecules before they get a chance to permeate elsewhere.

If we tried to get the vacuum that perfect, that "dry", then no repaired system would exist, maybe not even a factory one.

[brads911sc]

More wrong thinking. Here we go again...

Isn't it pretty much factual that evacuating, pulling a HARD vacuum, will "dry" the dryer desiccant...??

[brads911sc]

Please shut up wwest

Quote de Pazuzu

I'll tell you why pulling a vacuum with a normal A/C type pump will not dry out a dryer. You need to listen, because I have worked with some of the hardest vacuums on Earth, and know how they work. Since I have a definable history with these systems, you can quietly listen to me and not try to refute me, like you do with Keuhl.



A vacuum pump does not pull stuff out of a system, but that's what you (and almost everyone) thinks it does. It instead takes any particle that enters the vacuum pump orifice and sequesters it away from the system (vents to outside). It doesn't pull stuff along the hoses, it just waits for individual molecules to bump into it's orifice. As more and more molecules bump into it, they get removed from the system and the system pressure drops.



Sorry, but methinks you be mistaken..



NATURE HATES A VACUUM



Be aware that I have NO personal knowledge of how an A/C vacuum pump actually works internally, despite owning a cheapo HF one. But years ago at Boeing I was responsible for the maintenance of an electron E-Beam welder, three stage pumping system, IIRC.



But like a simple engine lubricating oil pump I suspect the pumping mechanism continuously opens "voids" that just previously did not exist, therefore had very little, or no, content. As the void grows larger and larger, molecules (of whatever medium) rush in to fill the void, vacuum.



So it isn't a matter of "snapping" up atmospheric molecules which randomly happen by as you seem to presume.



Now, molecules are bumping around on each other, on the hose walls, all over. There's lots of them, but they only travel a tiny tiny distance each bump. Eventually (hours) the vacuum pump has sequestered, oh, 99% of the molecules (about 10 Torr, 0.5 inches of mercury) which is pretty reasonable for a A/C type pump in real life. That means that 99% of the molecules are sequestered away, and the path they travel each bump is about 10 times longer.



However...the original travel distance (actually called the Mean Free Path) was...about 100 nanometers. Now, with our "good working vacuum" our mean free path is microns. So, any molecule has to hop along at the rate of microns per hop until it bumps into the vacuum pump orifice. This takes forever, and is not guaranteed even with an infinite amount of time for everything to hop into the pump.



Now, this is only about GAS molecules in an open free space, not water molecules which are actively sealed in the coarse surface of the hoses, dryer, etc (there's not just a physical trap, but they are electrostatically bound to the surface). This makes water molecules extra "heavy" compared to gas molecules, so their effective mean free path is a tiny fraction of the ideal ones shown above.



Basically, for a dryer that is 20 feet of twisting hose away from a weak shop vacuum pump to dry out after being environmentally soaked, would take forever, and even then, you'd probably pick up as much moisture through the porous hose that pump slowly removes.

It sounds as if you have never seen a fully "crumpled up, "compacted" fuel tank due to being fully sealed and a blocked fuel pump return line.



Fuel pump suction doesn't stop at liquid or atmospheric molecular content it "wants" the metal tank walls to "come" to it also.



A vacuum pump is simply a reverse form of the pump you use to pressurize your tires...



Atmospheric molecules RUSH in, in GREAT haste, to fill the VOID created by the inlet side of the pump mechanism's volume as it becomes greater and greater. Much like a gear type engine lubricating oil pump.



And the subject matter of the moment is if the ordinary A/C vacuum pump can DRY out the desiccant in a R/D, not if it can SUCK molecules of water that have permeated the hose walls.



If we tried to get the vacuum that perfect, that "dry", then no repaired system would exist, maybe not even a factory one.