Shop installed turbo tie-rods, shocks, tires BUT....

[tight as a bull's ass]

I took my '83 911sc to a local shop to install new Turbo tie rods, new Bilsteins, and 4 new Kumho tires.

now the steering feels just as loose (or looser) than it felt before I took the car in for service.

Could the tie-rod install have been performed incorrectly?

I've driven the car a couple hundred miles since and it still doesn't feel as tight as I thought it would.....

what's going on ? any ideas? thanks....

[masraum]

To what specs did they set the alignment. That can make a difference in the feel.

[tight as a bull's ass]

to "road driving" specs.....as opposed to "auto-x-ing" specs.

[dean]

If your old ends weren't blown then you won't notice much difference. Just my opinion

[Lucky]

While the Kumhos are a great value, they are not a max performance tire. They are compromised towards ride quality and away from fast response to side loads. This could explain some of the "looseness" you feel in your steering.

-- John

[Zeke]

Could be the tires. Whenever I get new tires on any car, they always seem to lighten up the steering over the old tires with little tread left.

When you do multiple changes at one time, you lose your benchmark; you don't know which to blame for what. Old racers' trick: only change one thing at a time to fully understand the effect of the change.

Now obviously I'm not really sugesting that you make several trips to the tire shop to install one component at a time. I'm only defending my opinion that the tie rods may have nothing to do with the *new* feeling of the car.

[tight as a bull's ass]

Lucky, I replaced 2 year old snow tires (Bridgestone Blizzaks)

new tires are Kumho Ecstas Supra 712....W-rating (and that's not a max performance tire?????)

but.....now I'm PISSED.

after spending all that time and money, I still dont have the "feel"that I was looking for out of my 911...the power is there but i feel it's wasted with the current handling/suspension.

should I replace tires at this point and go with a more agressive alignment? any suggestions for new rubber?

anyone have a good tire/alignment set-up that will work well with my Bilsteins/turbo tie rods? thanks.

[Superman]

My new Michelin Pilots were pretty loose for the first 400-500 miles. Tyson said they would get much better and they did.

Alignment can make a HUGE difference. Turbo tie rods make a small difference.

[Argo]

Puzzling. I just did the Bilstein HD, turbo tie rod, new tire treatment and I have to say that the improvement was amazing. It handled pretty well before, but I'm still surprised at how much faster I can take my favorite curves with plenty left and flat as a rail. The only difference in my set-up are new control arms and bushings and Bridgestone RE 730's. Are your bushings tight? Did your Bilsteins raise the car any? Mine went up 3/4" in the front and 1" in the rear so I needed to have it lowered and corner balanced. What's your ride height? Something's up here - you should notice a big improvement.

Argo
88 Targa

[don911]

Do you have 15" or 16" wheels? If you have 15", I'd say it is the tire sidewall flex you're feeling. I noticed a big improvement in response when I went to 16" wheels.
Also, in my opinion, turbo tie rods don't do much, if anything to improve handling unless your stock tie rods are bad. I added the turbo tie rods and didn't notice any change.
My car turned like a sled until I put on sport shocks, larger torsion bars and had it aligned with a street/track setup and corner balanced...plus the 16" wheels. It's 100% better now. The cambermeister strut brace I added this year also improved turn in response and seemed to reduce some pushing.

[Vipergrün]

You don't mention your tire pressures, are they correct? Also, you may want to go for a hard drive on the tires to get them heat cycled. I think you'd want at least 1 degree negative camber on all four corners as well. I just did the turbo tie rods, Bilstein Sport inserts and had an alignment, removed the 10mm space on top of the strut and cut down the front shock bump stops. Amazing difference. Something doesn't sound right. How about your ball joints? Bushings worn? The toe settings can also cause the squirrly feeling.

-Brad
80SC

[Sean Hamilton]

Originally posted by tight as a bull's ass
......doesn't feel as tight as I thought it would.....

G'day "Bull" ??? Btw, how do I address you?
When you say 'loose" do you mean light and little resistance? or wobbly loose - something hasn't been tightened up properly / out of balance etc which can be entirely different issues all together.

When starting afresh go back to the original spec's and correct tyre pressures (& assuming the Kumhos are to spec also?).
Before changing the tyres, get 'em to recheck Camber and Toe - In/Out, and re-set to FACTORY specs.
Take the car for a spin.
How's it feel?
Okay, now describe to them how you want it to feel.
They should then re-adjust the Camber and Toe - In/Out settings (away from the factory specs) to suit your needs.
It may take a couple of trials - one thing at a time.
If all that fails - then..... re-think the Kumhos.

I can't imagine it's the new Turbo tie rods or new Bilsteins unless they themselves demand a re-adjustment of the Camber and Toe - In/Out settings.

[Vipergrün]

Ummm, also, unless the new tie rods were installed at the EXACT same position as the old ones, an alignment will be mandatory. If your ride height has increased, the amount of negative camber has decreased. This will all lead to what you are experiecing.

cheers, again....

-Brad
80SC

[Vipergrün]

BTW, how exactly to you measure the tightness of a bulls ass? Or is that a topic for a different BBS

-Brad

[Sean Hamilton]

Originally posted by bb80sc
BTW, how exactly to you measure the tightness of a bulls ass?

with a sphincterometre
Stinker of a job though.

[David Ceruti]

I recently changed my tyres from bridgestone 711s, that were really shot, to S03s and I had exactly the same experience - car feels very loose. But I noticed that the brakingand the grip around corners is much better if I ignore the "feel". My theory is that the new wheels have more sidewall flex and I may need to play around with more camber to get the planted feel that the car had on the old tyres.
I'll keep you posted

David

[tight as a bull's ass]

thanks for your replies.

here's some more info:

the tires are 16"
tire pressure: front 29 psi, rear 34 psi.

the new shocks did raise the car higher by about 1" but the shop re-adjusted the height to the original specs.

would changing the CAMBER and TOE-IN settings really tighten her up?

[Argo]

Isn't rear tire pressure supposed to be about 42 lbs.?

Argo
88 Targa

[dean]

Hey Tight Ass

Try 32 psi up front

[Chuck Moreland]

Originally posted by tight as a bull's ass

now the steering feels just as loose (or looser) than it felt before I took the car in for service.

I've driven the car a couple hundred miles since and it still doesn't feel as tight as I thought it would.....

Terms like "tight" and "loose" can mean different things.

Can you describe more specifically what you are not happy with?

eg. Loose means the car oversteers, loose means the steering wheel has play in it, loose means the steering wheel takes little effort to turn, etc....


Without the benefit of your answer, here are a few comments:

It sounds like you expected some specific improvement and it didn't happen. But it didn't get any worse either.

Assuming you had worn bogies, the bilsteins should have changed the feel profoundly in terms of ride quality and feedback. But it wouldn't change the feel of the steering.

New tires feel less responsive than worn tires. This because the taller tread blocks deform more easily, they squirm more, leading to bigger slip angles.

Turbo tie rods don't change feel too much unless you are replacing worn tie rods.

Alignment settings and ride height can have a profound affect on feel.