Rambling on about my '88 plans, but advice always welcome

[spidklr]

I'm old enough to know it always pays to ask the smart people before wasting your money :-).

I am about a year in with my 1988 Targa "Hilde." I don't have massive piles of cash. The car is a good driver, not a museum piece, with 110k miles. I plan to drive and enjoy it and keep it a long time, with incremental improvements. Target is street and once- or twice-a-year HPDE at BIR, Road America, etc.

The first year was about addressing some deferred maintenance items (tires, battery, alternator, belts, headlight lens, clutch master cylinder, clutch pedal stop, pedal box rebuild, mice - remediation that is, plugs & wires, fixed wiring issues like lighting, etc.)

But enough about the past! I'm putting a careful plan together for the next several years as budget allows.

General plan is - wheels and tires first, then a street/perf suspension refresh / lower / corner balance and alignment, then a quality seat or maybe two. Perhaps a Fabspeed or M&K pipe plus SW chip. Once my two boys, 7 and 10, don't fit in the back anymore (driving with them now is a hoot) I'd like to put in a roll bar and upgrade to optional 5-point(s).

Someplace in there I'd like to add a dead pedal and remove the AC and center console.

Fantasy items include a RUF CTR-inspired bumper kit, a low-pressure turbo, with matching exhaust enhancement :-). I would love to make a low-key CTR tribute. We'll see.

[wayner]

Great approach.

We are both on the same course but coming at it from different starting points. (your past is my future. I started by building an RSR and am now getting into the maintenance)

[spidklr]

So 2016 may be the year of wheels and tires.

The car came with the standard 15 x 7 and 15 x 8 Fuchs from 1988. (Yes, I know, keep them. I will.) Tires now come in your choice of two brands all-seasons -- one with IMO unreasonable price. Not cool.

I'm going to 16s or 17s, but wavering a bit about which. I like the look of the 16s, but I like the choices for the 17s in both wheels and tires. There's always the spectre of 16 inch tire choices drying up/getting a premium cost. The Singer cars run 17s, and I don't think anyone complains about looks in that department...

So I'm trying to understand the right sizing and offsets so that when it comes to do the suspension I don't have a big OOOPS moment. I love the look of a lowered 911 but I don't think I have patience for fender rubbing or pranged front lips from pulling into a gas station :-). I would much rather get the perfect size wheels than use spacers (they would make me nervous at the track.) I am considering stiffer torsion bars when the car is lowered, both for handling and to protect the fenders.

Rota appears to sell well matched 17" sizes for Fox/Linea Corse wheels to bolt right on the 3.2 Carrera thanks, I have to imagine, to Pelican "Moses" getting it all set up

7.5 x 17 35mm offset fronts
9 x 17 16mm offset rears
5 x 130 bolt pattern

I spent the last Cars and Coffee on my hands and knees taking pics of wheels and tires with sizes :-)

205/55R16 Front and 225/50R16 92V seemed like a safe bet for 16s, even on a lowered car. There was, however, one like that with a bent front fender lip and associated clipped tire.

For 17s, on forums many people indicate that in the front one could go up to a 215 and in the back up to a 245 without too much worry, and that a 225 front and 255 rear is where things get a little dicey.

True?

[spidklr]

In the wheel department, I like Fuchs-look (who doesn't) but since I have a set already, I'm also considering something different, so the car could have a stock look in it's original wheels plus more of a CTR or hotrod look in the bigger ones. Real RUF wheels look awesome but are out of the question financially, and too heavy.

I think the main consideration might be if the cost of really good forged wheels is worth it for me. After looking and looking and looking, I like these options:

Braid BZ BRAID USA (conservative, but handsome)

Fikse Profil 5 High Performance Wheels | Aluminum Wheels | Race WheelsFikse Forged Wheels - 5 pointers a little reminiscent of the CTR wheels

Fikse Profil 5S (same link) maybe with dark centers

Fikse only makes 17 and up sizes

CCW LM5 CCW - Complete Custom Wheel // LM52PC Wheel Design

Rota Foxes (knowing they are cast and not forged)

I don't need to go to a 3-piece or more exotic racing wheel.

Are the forged wheels worth the price premium? Or would I just be spending money I could use for something else? I'm the type of guy willing to pay for quality if it's worthwhile - and this is a 10 year sort of engagement.

[spidklr]

Armed with wheels and tires, the next step I have planned is the suspension - tune, lower, align.

Bruce Anderson's Performance Handbook suggests stiffer torsion bars as a basic improvement, and recommends that before sway bars, so I'm thinking new torsion bars and dampers, new rubber bits but keep the factory sway bars for now. If things get serious track-wise I could update to adjustable sway bars later.

He says the '88 came with 18.8 mm torsion bars front and 25 mm rear, but suggests 22 mm front and 28 rear as an upgrade.

Elephant racing - who, by the way, have one of the best web sites I've ever seen! - have a package called Sport Restoration 1 that seems to fit what I want to do -

Hollow torsion bars 21 mm front and 28 mm rear, turbo tie rods, bump steer kit, all the rubber bits and hardware. Bilstein HD dampers. They also include a strut brace, but I might skip that (we use the frunk to carry junk. It looks neat, but I guess I'm not convinced about the performance advantage for my mostly casual driving. Plus Targa = the whole car flexes a bit anyway)

Elephant Racing | Suspension Navigator | Porsche 911/912/930

Also considering dialing it up a notch to their Street Performance 2 package, which has some firmer connections. Actually the more I think about it, the better that sounds.

Plan to have a local shop install that and do a quality lower/alignment at the same time.

[spidklr]

For a dead pedal, as tempting as the fancy aluminum pedal kits go, I think I'll save my money and just go with the black factory repro from our hosts Porsche 911 (1974-1989) - Pedal System - Page 4

I do really want something, though, as it feels like there's no good place to put my left foot.

I love the look of the others but if it's a choice to spend the money elsewhere, I think nice pedals may drop toward the bottom of my list.

[spidklr]

On the AC front - I decided to live with the car day to day for one summer and see how things went. I am happy to say that here in Minnesota, I turned it on one time, mostly out of curiosity, validated that it barely works at all. Didn't miss it otherwise - the top is the best air conditioning.

I plan to pull it all out of the car and save the weight. I'm not sure those parts factor into the "keep it with the car to restore to original." Hard to say, since the original factory air isn't very well regarded in the first place...

[algs911]

Having two teenagers now I certainly can relate to the metered approach.

For me, I went with a Wevo shift kit and coupler first thing. I autocrossed and took the car to the track. The peace of mind with regards to shifting was a huge improvement for me.

Next, I went with turbo tie rods. Good upgrade, fun project, then alignment.

Next I went with thicker t-bars and Koni sport shocks, lowered it to euro ride height. Another, more aggressive alignment.

I then went with 7s and 8s (still 16") and had the fenders cut to accommodate.

With everything I had done up to that point I felt like the car was a pretty good compromise between street and track, and for not much money.

I'm much further along now, but the above approach worked for me at first.

Have fun!

Al

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by spidklr

So 2016 may be the year of wheels and tires.

The car came with the standard 15 x 7 and 15 x 8 Fuchs from 1988. (Yes, I know, keep them. I will.) Tires now come in your choice of two brands all-seasons -- one with IMO unreasonable price. Not cool.

I'm going to 16s or 17s, but wavering a bit about which. I like the look of the 16s, but I like the choices for the 17s in both wheels and tires. There's always the spectre of 16 inch tire choices drying up/getting a premium cost. The Singer cars run 17s, and I don't think anyone complains about looks in that department...

So I'm trying to understand the right sizing and offsets so that when it comes to do the suspension I don't have a big OOOPS moment. I love the look of a lowered 911 but I don't think I have patience for fender rubbing or pranged front lips from pulling into a gas station :-). I would much rather get the perfect size wheels than use spacers (they would make me nervous at the track.) I am considering stiffer torsion bars when the car is lowered, both for handling and to protect the fenders.

Rota appears to sell well matched 17" sizes for Fox/Linea Corse wheels to bolt right on the 3.2 Carrera thanks, I have to imagine, to Pelican "Moses" getting it all set up

7.5 x 17 35mm offset fronts
9 x 17 16mm offset rears
5 x 130 bolt pattern

I spent the last Cars and Coffee on my hands and knees taking pics of wheels and tires with sizes :-)

205/55R16 Front and 225/50R16 92V seemed like a safe bet for 16s, even on a lowered car. There was, however, one like that with a bent front fender lip and associated clipped tire.

For 17s, on forums many people indicate that in the front one could go up to a 215 and in the back up to a 245 without too much worry, and that a 225 front and 255 rear is where things get a little dicey.

True?

oe 7x15Et23.3 w/ 205 /55 fit well mostly because of the short tire height, ~24", 205/50 are even easier to fit @~23"

even stock 7x16 Et23.3 w/ 205/55 x16 can be an issue at the lip due to the o/s and height @~25.3"

225/45 x17 on 8x17ET31 is an easier fit than the above 205/55 x16 because the 17s are shorter @~ 25" the ET moves the wheel inboard a few mm providing extra room at the lip.

Any of the 16 or 17 may require lip work depending on suspension setup.

In back the Carrera wheel well is big enough for 275 -285mm tires, a very easy fit is 255/40 on 9.5 x17ET19 wheels
8ET25 225/40 x17 & 9.5ET19 255/40 x17



8x18ET30 245/40 & 9.5x18ET20 275/35 x18


Fikse has the very nice FM5 and FM5S but they also have Fuchs look alikes in 17 & 18. I believe that they now do custom o/s and finishes as well. If not take a look at Forgeline that certainly does off er custom o/s and finish.

[spidklr]

Originally Posted by Bill Verburg

oe 7x15Et23.3 w/ 205 /55 fit well mostly because of the short tire height, ~24", 205/50 are even easier to fit @~23"

even stock 7x16 Et23.3 w/ 205/55 x16 can be an issue at the lip due to the o/s and height @~25.3"

225/45 x17 on 8x17ET31 is an easier fit than the above 205/55 x16 because the 17s are shorter @~ 25" the ET moves the wheel inboard a few mm providing extra room at the lip.

Any of the 16 or 17 may require lip work depending on suspension setup.

In back the Carrera wheel well is big enough for 275 -285mm tires, a very easy fit is 255/40 on 9.5 x17ET19 wheels
8ET25 225/40 x17 & 9.5ET19 255/40 x17

8x18ET30 245/40 & 9.5x18ET20 275/35 x18


Fikse has the very nice FM5 and FM5S but they also have Fuchs look alikes in 17 & 18. I believe that they now do custom o/s and finishes as well. If not take a look at Forgeline that certainly does off er custom o/s and finish.

Really nice setup Bill - love it. Thanks for the info - those are wider than I would have guessed possible. Any mods other than fender rolling?

[spidklr]

Originally Posted by algs911

Having two teenagers now I certainly can relate to the metered approach.

For me, I went with a Wevo shift kit and coupler first thing. I autocrossed and took the car to the track. The peace of mind with regards to shifting was a huge improvement for me.

Next, I went with turbo tie rods. Good upgrade, fun project, then alignment.

Next I went with thicker t-bars and Koni sport shocks, lowered it to euro ride height. Another, more aggressive alignment.

I then went with 7s and 8s (still 16") and had the fenders cut to accommodate.

With everything I had done up to that point I felt like the car was a pretty good compromise between street and track, and for not much money.

I'm much further along now, but the above approach worked for me at first.

Have fun!

Al

Thanks! It's definitely one small project at a time. I don't want to take it off the road - or break the bank.

[spidklr]

Forgeline FF3's (and DS3's) look BEAUTIFUL, but dang, bring your checkbook :-). $1200 each?

Forgeline: FF3 Forged Aluminum 3-Piece 5-Spoke Wheel

[spidklr]

On the seat front I am leaning toward Recaro Speeds like these

Pulled the trigger on Recaro Speeds - Rennlist Discussion Forums

Leather (or leather-like) outside, alcantara-like centers. I'd like to get them with the 5-point option for the future, use them with stock 3 point seat belts in the meantime.

I'd love some with the older/boxier look like these Recaro Seats BMW E10 1600 2002 2002tii E21 320i Porsche Volkswagen Nice | eBay but I'm having a little difficulty finding the right combination of features.

BMW E21 seats also look sweet, and I've seen a few pics of those in 911s

Recaro Specialist L? Corbeau GTSII? http://corbeau.com/gts-ii.html