Does Your Passenger Window Go All The Way Down? '83 TARGA
 

The passenger window on my '83 Targa doesn't go down all the way.

I've adjusted the height adjuster, but it only adjusts the height with the window up.

Is this normal or is there something out of whack with my window adjustment? The driver's side is flush with the door when it's down all the way.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1467048978.jpg

Thanks, Gordo

The window on my 83 Cabriolet goes all the way down. I suspect an adjustment issue OR it is possible the glass has pulled out of the U channel or the U channel itself has bent or detached. This is what happened to me (rusted through) and eventually caused a complete failure. After putting in a good replacement, the window moves perfectly stop to stop.

You should pull the door panel to make sure the glass is properly seated and go from there. Something is preventing it from lowering completely. Best find it now before it binds and burns a motor - or worse!

Yeah... that ain't right Gordo. Like Mhack, my U channel rusted out and when it does...no telling what position the glass is actually in down below. Symptoms start as you are experiencing. This does not guarantee your channel is rusted.

You can check for U channel decay by raising glass slightly (compared to where it is in pic) and pull up on glass gently and push down. Got to be careful with this so as not to make bad situation worse... but it is a way to check channel without removing speaker (if you have door speaker.) If you know how glass feels when it moves normally---there's a very slight play up and down... you'll notice glass does not move as it should when U channel is rusting out. There's a "stretchy" feel to it.

Hmmmnn...
 

Thanks guys,

Door panel is off, everything's been inspected:
- I shifted the glass around some in the mount, seemed normal
- No rust anywhere

Meanwhile upon further inspection and compared to the driver's window, the passenger glass simply isn't and won't seat in the window mount channel fully.

Considering pulling the glass for a better look at why it won't seat.

Gordo

Rusted Door Window Channel
 

You guys are spot on:

Poor photo, but my window mount / u-channel has some extra drainage holes:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1467079401.jpg

Bummer - I'm into the doors to install speakers. Thought I was going to make it through this project without getting "while you're at it" side tracked...

Oh well - mystery solved.

Thanks again,

Gordo

My 81 Targa has exactly the same issue. My passenger window looks just like yours and has for several years. I assumed that's just the way it was. I guess now I'll have to take it apart and look.

Where you able clean up the old one good enough or do you have to source a replacement?

Window Lift Tray
 

Rather embarrassing solution - but temporary.

I cleaned up the rail (scraped and wire brushed the rust areas) and epoxied (JB Weld like stuff) the rust holes. Reinstalled to find that even with the window seated correctly in the rail - the passenger side still sticks up a bit out of the door (not as much as before I addressed the rust); unlike the driver's side, which recesses completely.

I plan to order a new rail (ouch ~ $280 ish on Pelican Porsche 911 (1974-1989) - Seals & Weatherstripping - Page 2) when I have more time to address it (i.e. winter & not driving the car daily)

I figured the appropriate fix can wait - the window's been this way for as long as I can remember, another couple of months with my temp fix isn't going to make a difference.

Gordo

Gordo... based on your note... will ask if you blocked/supported under the rail inside the door while forcing the glass and u seal into the rail? Without supporting it, there's no way to get the glass deep into the rail for a secure fit. (It's also the final push down that enables the alignment of the glass to the roof.) With a rusted/weakened rail, the need to support it evenly across the bottom is important---without doing so it may deform when pressure is applied. Pardon me if you know all this!

Window Channel Rust
 

Rust in window channels is common and problematic...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1514349982.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1514349996.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1514350012.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1514349940.jpg

Gordo

I replaced my rail on driver side with a used one a while back during an overall refresh. Used one looked clean, not much rust if any. Damn if glass now sits just like yours (everything else was just put back in.) I have guessed the rail was the culprit but you’ve convinced me to remove my glass again and make sure. This situation can really screw up the expensive little rubber seal at the top of your vent window frame, ask how I know...

More Targa Window Adjustment Questions and Findings
 

In my quest to get my Targa windows properly aligned and adjusted - I went ahead and bought new lower stops for the window regulators.

The old lower regulator stops were completely worn out and the white plastic inserts were missing. Here's the old lower stop, next to a new one:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1517153124.jpg


After I installed the new stop, I found that when I lowered the window, it now stuck out of the door way too much (about 2" of window exposed / protruding out of the door).

The lower stop isn't adjustable as far as I can tell - which made me wonder what's the point of the lower stop???.

If I remove the lower stop - the window goes all the way down and doesn't protrude above the top of the door (at all), and it doesn't seem to have any effect on the regulator - it still stops lowering the window at some point even though the lower stop is not installed.

While I had the driver's door apart, I also noticed that the driver's door window was held in the regulator rail / channel with silicone caulk - and doesn't appear to have the normal / stock rubber grommet that the window normally sits in.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1517153521.jpg

I'm considering attempting to remove the window and reinstall with a rubber grommet.

Things to do on a rainy January day...

Gordo

Answering my own question on why the door window regulator has a lower stop...

My theory is that the lower stop is installed solely to lock the window in the down position so that the regulator assembly doesn't rattle around. It's not designed to allow adjustment / how far down the window can be lowered.

Gordo

I always assume there was some need that had to be addressed (either mechanical or legislated) or the factory would not have spent the time and money to build and install the part. The anti-rattling idea makes sense.

??? Lowered Targa Window
 

OK - I don't have a clue what's "normal"

I've looked at a boatload of SC Targa photo's (Google Images) and found most windows appear to go all the way down, with no window exposed - but some appear to be completely lowered with some amount of window still protruding from the door - just like mine.

I installed the new regulator lower stops in the driver's and passenger's sides, and now both windows lower to the same level - leaving the same amount of window exposed / above the doorframe.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1517162299.jpg

I've looked at everything that is adjustable on the reg's etc. - but there is no way that the windows can be lowered further in the down position.

I'm now wondering if the type of regulator that my car has (with adjustable upper stop / fixed lower stop) - simply leaves some amount of window exposed / above the door, when it's fully lowered.

I wouldn't really care - but it seems most photos show the windows go completely down, which makes me think something is out of whack with mine, and its uncomfortable to rest your arm on the door, if the window is slightly up...

Gordo

Hi..how far does the window go down when you remove the stop?

Ivan

New Theory - Targa Window Down Position
 

I was headed in that direction...

Here's a photo with the lower window stops removed:

With the window regulator lower stops removed - the windows in their lowered position are now flush with the top of the doors:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1517165908.jpg


This brings up a new theory... I believe that 911's equipped with the Targa / Cab type window regulators that used the lower window stop - originally had windows that didn't go all the way down / left a portion of the window protruding as per my previous photo.

I think vehicles with this type of regulator, that have windows that are flush with the doors, are missing the white plastic insert / bumper that should reside in the metal lower stop bracket. Mine broke and crumbled at some point - allowing the driver's window to lower further than originally designed.

To prove my theory - here's a photo showing the old window stop that was installed in my door (which was missing the white plastic bumper), next to a new stop & bumper:

The old stop is worn out from metal on metal contact between the stop and regulator arm. The new stop and white bumper insert, stops the lowering movement of the window at a considerably higher point (as per my photo with the stops installed)
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1517166377.jpg


I'm now considering not installing the stops and driving my car for a while, to see how much rattle / noise I get.

Gordo

The window should go all the way down, leaving just the "nose" of the window (near the vent window) exposed, 1/8" or less.

Otherwise, how are you supposed to comfortably hang your arm out of the window while motoring around? :D

My body shop fixed my driver glass that was sticking up by seating it better into the rail. But it was not sticking up as far as yours.

Something's not right with your setup. Mine has the lower stops and still lowers all the way. Keep trying.

Gordo..somehow i remember that you can relocate the stops.It was a long time ago i did this for a client...check into it..
Ivan

OK Then...
 

You joke - but that's exactly what got me digging into this.

I'm mystified...

This weekend I will completely remove one of the regulator assemblies to give it a full check out.

Thanks,

911SC Targa Lower Window Stops
 

Folks,

I'm convinced there is no way that the window goes all the way down with the lower stops installed.

I re-confimed that the lower stops are not adjustable...

I removed the stop and lowered the window all the way down. As "universeman" commented ~ 1/4" of remained exposed, near the vent window:

Photo of window, lowered as far as it would go, with the stop removed / not installed:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1517763630.jpg

When the window is lowered this far without the stop installed - the rail channel bottoms out in the door, which prevents the window from lowering any further:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1517763788.jpg

I confirmed that my windows are properly seated in the window rail channels:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1517763918.jpg

Even if the windows weren't fully seated - at most this would result in ~ 1/2" difference.

Bottom line - I'm not going to install the lower stops, and I still believe most cars that have windows that don't protrude above the door:
- Have a different regulator assembly, or
- Have worn out window stops (missing plastic bumpers), or
- Had the window stops removed and never reinstalled.

That's my story, and I'm sticking with it unless someone can show me photo proof otherwise...

Gordo

Window Stop
 

Ok,

I'm over the edge now - I decided to remove the regulator so I could see the entire assembly.

Here's what I'm getting at - in the following photo, you can see that the type of regulator that's installed in my car has a lower stop bracket that isn't present on most (?) 911 regulators.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1517772906.jpg


The stop that's attached to the lower bracket is not adjustable (has small nubs that fit into 2 holes in the lower bracket):

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1517772943.jpg

Bottom line -vehicles that have this type of regulator (with lower stop bracket), will have windows that don't go down as far as those that have the non-stop bracket type regulator...

OBTW - yes, my spring retainer came loose... Looks like I will be fixing as per this idea: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/664473-slow-window-fix.html
Gordo

Window Regulator Spring Retainer Repair
 

My version of the window regulator spring retainer repair - using stuff I found around the house...

- Small section of metal tube cut to ~ 3/4"
- Small carriage bolt & nut (the square head of the carriage bolt was a close fit - needed to be hammered into the rectangular cut-out where the original retainer was mounted)

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1517786594.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1517786611.jpg

With the spring retained in the original position and properly tensioned - the window goes up a little faster / easier.

Gordo

My targa doesn’t have that regulator, with the lower stop. The replacement part I put in also does not have it. What’s the part number on that regulator? It appears to me you may have the wrong one.

When the top rail really gives up the ghost, the window doesn't go down freely and hangs up on the channel causing it to crash down unless properly guided. Also on the way up it digs into the weather stripping in the channel and causes grief. This happened to me and my wife while on a trip. New top rails are not cheap but seem to be the one area in the system where water accumulates and has no means of drainage. Perhaps the rust holes are a good thing....LOL

As mentioned - it appears that this style regulator was used in some (possibly few) SC Targa's and Cabriolets (based on info in the Bentley manual). The lower stop type regulator also appears here: https://www.porscherepair.us/porsche-911-guide/adjusting-door-window-targa.html

Image from linked website:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1517887749.jpg

The part # is 91179954202.

I'm guessing the type of window regulator used depends on what the factory had in stock at the time of the vehicle's production. Apparently they had the lower stop bracket style in stock when they built mine (1983).

Been there... Your comment did make me consider another theory on why Porsche installed the lower stop bracket style regulator:


---------------------------------------------

Another theory on why Porsche may have tried the window regulator with a lower stop bracket:

- With the lower stop style reg, the windows never fully retract into the door. As such, the top of the window can't recess lower than the door's weather stripping / "scraper" (the part that is inserted into the top of the door frame).

- The lower stop design reg reduces wear on the weather stripping / scraper. The top of window can't get below the bottom edge of the scraper (covered with a felt like material), and push it upward, causing it to deform or move out of position and result in damage and wear.

Gordo

Interesting. Given the two choices, I'd go with a regulator without the lower stop and deal with the damage to the scraper (which is relatively minor anyway). Not being able to go all the way down with the window is annoying to your left arm.

Just to follow-up and add 83 Cab-specific info to this great thread...

I've just completed rebuilding my driver's side window / regulator due to the window coming out of the channel and dropping into the door. I have a separate thread on all of that and the process of re-assembly so I'll focus on the regulator stop here.

The lower stop on my regulator was completely broken apart and laying in the bottom of the door. The top stop was in place and I properly adjusted it a few years ago. I ordered a new lower stop and the plastic insert from our host.

I discovered exactly the same thing as the OP - with the lower stop installed, no amount of adjusting the mechanism would allow the window to lower all the way. In my case, the front part of the window is about 3/4" extended and the back is hidden. The window rolls up and mates with the top and the quarter window perfectly.

I also prefer the clean look and ability to comfortably place my left arm on the door top! So I removed the lower stop - this allows the window to lower more than enough to hide. I think I might attach a small stop inside the door at the rear window track to act as a positive stop at the correct height just to reduce the need to think about not lowering too much.