Turbos and the 914

[Malevolentfrog]

Has anyone out there turboed a 914. Does anyone know of a kit for this. I am considering putting a 2275 in My 914 and adding a turbo. I know it seems like alot but You have to understand that I have the Tim Allen syndrome BAD. My personal motorcycle has a 131ci engine in it. Thats right 131 cubic inches in two cyclinders!! That would work out to somewhere around 2200cc. So You can see My problem. Would a turboed type IV hold up for the street. Remember now I rebuild the topend on My Motorcycle about every 10,000 miles. So I might not have the same Idea of holding up as You do!! Any Help or thoughts on this would be appriciated. Thanks

[BobP]

If you haven't already, go look on the ShopTalkForum boards at http://shoptalkforums.com/, turbos have been discussed in the 914, Type IV and Fuel Injection areas, they also have a Forced Induction forum. You can do a search in any of the forums and find a lot of info. There are several people with turbo 914s with various induction systems.

Hope this helps.

[Joe Ricard]

Rennlist has a recent post of a turbo car. look at the post "add a little life to the board".

[Joe Bob]

sammyg2@earthlink.net

Email this guy...he did one.

Matter of fact,,,the guy in the blue shirt is him....

[sammyg2]

I built one, and i know of two others.
Many years ago there used to be at least two companies that made kits, but no more. If you want a turbo 914, you have to do it yourself.
Type 4s really wake up with a turbo. The stock cam works well and the engine will pull to 6200 rpm easy without falling off.

Boost is limited to about 7 or 8 psi unless you install an intercooler.

[Malevolentfrog]

Allright I have went and looked though the shoptalkforums about turbos. I will have enough money in this car before I am done with it. I guess I will have Raby build me a T 4 and leave it at that. A 914 with one of his engines should be about the best compromise between power and longevity I can find. Thanks

[Rouser]

In case anyone was interested:

Porsche 914 Turbo Set-Up 4-Sale

Have at it!

[sammyg2]

oops, sorry. I assumed it was your kit you were selling. Never mind.

[JmuRiz]

Have you looked for a fellow named moggy on the shop talk forums' forced induction forum. He's in the UK and made his own supercharger kit for his Type IV Bug. He has the plans for it and he can give them to you. It takes some welding...but hey that's not a problem for you
Here is a pic of the setup and a dyno chart:

Dyno

Now I think a LOT of people would be interrested in this as a kit...even more than the Steel Fender Flares!!!

Nathan

[mike mueller]

If you do you own work, I don't see what the big deal is for only getting 10k or 20k out of the motor before having to pull it for rings and a little refreshing............


What is the going rate of a ruby motor?
I have never seen a price quote for one of his big bore motors.

The nice thing about a big bore motor is that it is simple,
but "boring" compared to a turbo

[bowlsby]

Mike Mueller hasn't found Jake Raby's site? Prices are listed.

There is a huge amount to see...you will be in Type IV heaven...but not for a smoggable late model 914 unless you keep it stock...

Big bore kits you can assemble yourself for the price of a stock rebuild...

You will have a field day and something tells me you'll be building a Raby engine soon, Mike...we know you...

http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/

[Speedo959]

Does anyone have a step by step guide on turbo charging with D-Jet? I have seen it done over at All 914, but how? I plan on going that route as soon as I get all the info. Right now I just have bits and pieces.

[mike mueller]

Hey Speedo,

http://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58383

The above link had a description of the turbo that you saw on all914.com, the owner of the car posted some info.

Most of this stuff is R&D, no real documentation as far as I know.
Your best bet is to buy a few turbocharger books (Turbomania, Turbochargers and the last one Maximum Boost)

Also get a few of the books for Bosch Fuel injection, learn the how and why's of your fuel injection.

In the bug world, there are a lot of turbos running around,
go to Shoptalkforums.com and do a search, you can read about turbo'd bugs and 914's till your eyes tear up................

if you want something to bolt on, recycler.com has a kit for sale which I'm pretty sure uses the D-Jet system.


Jeff, I found the prices, WOW
I'm sorry, but I'd never in my life pay 5k for a 914 Type IV motor..............unless I won the lottery and bought the nickie aluminum cylinders

But I guess that's a good deal for someone that wants to buy a motor and not have to worry about it for some time. I see these motors as cheap and disposable so spending less than a grand for a rebuild every 2 or 3 years is no big deal..............

Just got conformation that my turbo is in the mail and on it's way to me This turbo has been well traveled, I bought from Sammy, then I sold it to a guy up in Washington and now I'm buying it back to put it on my own car..............

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

Bowlsby quips:
> ...something tells me you'll be building a Raby engine soon, Mike...we know you...

Naah, Jeff. If Mike is true to form, he'll buy the Raby kit, decide he doesn't want it, then sell it again.

"Mueller Motors, where we have every drive train that anyone has ever thought of bolting to a 914!"



Mike, you still haven't won that bet yet!! I know your car is running and mine isn't--but you haven't made it to a 914 gathering yet...

--DD

[oredith]

i think Brad doesn't like me.. :P

i've asked him to take down that mug shot of me.. i don't look THAT irritated in real life!..

for all those that've written me and asked about pictures n stuff.. -SORRY-.. i've really been meaning to put something together that shows my progress.. since i've got the exhaust part now with the pretty ceranmic coat.. i can literally assemble the entire turbo setup and take a picture of it outside of the car..

BUT, complications have come up (ie, spun bearing on the daily driver, helping Herg with their race car project) that's pretty much left me with ZERO time to deal with the other stuff..

if you REALLY want to dig around for pictures, look for "turbo" in the archives, and there should be links n stuff as i was progressing with phase I of the turbo.. i think there's even a MPG of the turbo when i first got it running.. phase II has yet to start, and hopefully i'll have much better documentation of it this time around.. first i gotta get the MR2 running, so i can drive around, and then drop my heads off at RIMCO to have the exhaust valve enlarged..

and then it's the rotissery..

[MASSIVE TYPE IV]

we build quite a few of Turbo configured engines, but rarely install and tune them..Building a Turbo TIV is a challenge, it is totally different than any other turbo as the TIV has the more restrictive exhaust port, which hurts the heat energy getting to the turbo for spool up....Sealing up the heads is really tricky too.

[mike mueller]

the best, but of course most expensive and complicated method for sealing the heads and cylinders would be to make them one piece.......sounds crazy, but it was done in the past and is currently being done in some aircraft applications. The hardest and most complex machining operation is the valve seats and pockets.


Hey Jake,
When is Shad going full bore (no pun intended) on the "nickies"

also, is there a ballpark figure for these, within a few hundred $ guess is okay........

Thanks,

[pbanders]

Regarding the use of D-Jet in a turbo application...

Jeff Shyu's done it, and his setup works. But I think that Jeff would agree with me that it's done by using a LOT of fuel pressure and load-dependent supply (via the RRFPR and a hotwired CSV). I don't know what boost levels Jeff has been able to get to - Jeff?

If you're set on keeping D-Jet, I'd suggest taking a modest approach that requires only one modification to the system. Assuming you're turboing a stock 2.0L or 1.7L, and keeping the boost to 5 psig or less, all that you need to do is provide the proper reference pressure to the MPS for positive manifold pressure operation and full-load operation.

The problem is that the MPS will interpret the transition to positive manifold pressure as full-load, and will provide no additional enrichment. As a result, you'll get a rich surge when still not on full boost, and a progressively leaner mixture as boost builts. Not what you want.

To fix this problem, you need to provide the correct reference pressure to the vent side of the full-load diaphragm. Tap in a fitting on the throttle body above the throttle plate to supply the reference pressure. Remove the MPS, and using a drill press for precision, drill a hole in the vent end of the unit, next to the riser for the full-load stop screw. Be careful - too deep and you'll damage the full-load diaphragm below.

Tap the hole and insert a fitting. Use epoxy to seal the vent holes on the end of the case. Connect a hose from the throttle body fitting to the vent end fitting on the MPS.

Now, when the manifold pressure goes positive, it will still be lower than the reference pressure and the full-load diaphragm will not activate. This will also extend the range of part-load operation. The onset of full-load diaphragm engagement will occur when the pressure differential between the manifold and the reference pressure fitting drops below 6 in. Hg.

Due to the limited range of armature throw in the MPS, this modification will only work for boost pressures of about 5 psig or less. Beyond that boost, the MPS armature will reach the mechanical limit of its movement before the full-load diaphragm is fully engaged and you will have a lean mixture at full and eventually, part-load.

Re-adjusting the MPS part-load screw to a leaner setting to extend the range of operation to support higher boost levels will not work. Even if you compensate for the leaner mixture by increasing the fuel pressure or by adding ballast resistance to the TS2 sensor, the problem is that the MPS is already fairly close to the other end of its mechanical limit of armature movement when at about 18 in. Hg of manifold vacuum, a typical level at idle for a newer engine. You will quickly run into problems with the idle mixture being too rich for the correct part-load mixture. You can compensate somewhat by using the ECU knob to adjust, but as the transition from idle to part-load operation will be unaffected, an on-throttle "bog" is likely to result.

Happy experimenting .....

[oredith]

Hi Brad,
yup.. did exactly what you described with the MPS, and it worked great.. at least until i took the turbo pieces apart..

i was able to reach 14psi before the rubber plug on the intake manifold blew off.. i had pushed it on when i was FIRST testing the motor, and kinda forgot about it.. i was surprised that it held pressure up to 14psi!..

i agree that stock d-jet should be good up to 5psi.. i was able to run it at that with no problem at all.. but realistically, once you've built the turbo plumbing, etc.. who in their right mind is going to stay at 5psi, when you can buy a $20 hobbs switch, provide more fuel, and go up to 8psi?.. or spend $150 on a RRFPR, and go up to 14psi.. or.. be like me, plan for some 440CC injectors on custom rails, better fuel pump, and go up to 18psi?!.. it just never ends..

[pbanders]

Originally posted by oredith
Hi Brad,
yup.. did exactly what you described with the MPS, and it worked great.. at least until i took the turbo pieces apart..

i was able to reach 14psi before the rubber plug on the intake manifold blew off.. i had pushed it on when i was FIRST testing the motor, and kinda forgot about it.. i was surprised that it held pressure up to 14psi!..

i agree that stock d-jet should be good up to 5psi.. i was able to run it at that with no problem at all.. but realistically, once you've built the turbo plumbing, etc.. who in their right mind is going to stay at 5psi, when you can buy a $20 hobbs switch, provide more fuel, and go up to 8psi?.. or spend $150 on a RRFPR, and go up to 14psi.. or.. be like me, plan for some 440CC injectors on custom rails, better fuel pump, and go up to 18psi?!.. it just never ends..

Hey, Jeff, not everyone wants to be a crazy like you, driving around with flaming jets of fuel coming out of the exhausts !!!

My suggestion about 5 psig being reasonable was for a stock motor. When you get up to the kind of boost levels you are talking about, you need additional cooling to remove the heat (and oil cooling isn't enough to keep your heads from frying at high boost - you need more air or some fancy trick). Head leakage becomes more likely, and I'm sure there are a bunch of other problems I haven't considered.

If you don't mind driving a grenade, or getting 5K miles between rebuilds, then go for the mega-boost. But I think the stock motor could handle 5 psig of boost without modification.

BTW, how is the beast doing? Do you have enough data yet to put this one out of it's misery and build the hard-core engine? What is your cooling system going to look like? 911 shroud plus a front-mounted oil cooler? Tell us everything....