add on horse power - Page 2

Dave at Pelican Parts · Dave at Pelican Parts's Garage

Hey, Jeff--I think the carb'ed one is no longer. Didn't Mark sell off the motor to someone who wasn't installing it in anything??

--DD

oredith · 02-19-2002, 02:01 PM

that would be truly sad, if that draw thru carb'd turbo setup went away.. it was, afterall, the insperation to my own turbo.. i still remember the first Pomona swap meet, when this mysterious "sam gore" showed up with the turbo in hand, driving his chevy pick-um-up, swearing he's got a 914 that mates up to that turbo, in his garage..

tonight i take apart the exhaust, wire brush the surface (it's got some surface rust after sitting for 4-5 months), and hi-temp paint it.. drill, tap, helicoil the exhaust studs (who'd thunk they made 9mm helicoils!)(i lost 4 out of the 8 exhaust studs, the reason why the car was put out of commission before), bolt everything back up, and i'm ready to have sore arm, back, leg muscles from driving the car.. along with a perma-grin.. :P

it'll be MUCH better than driving the NA MR2..

GrantK · 02-19-2002, 03:41 PM

If you dont want to feel left out from the "Honda" crowd here is a "cool" air intake designed specifically for the 1.8. I'm highly suspect of the 8HP increase claim. My sense is that you'll be lucky if you dont lose power. I'm reminded of that fish story earlier in the thread.

http://www.9xauto.com/914filter.html

ejm914 · 02-19-2002, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DSPTurtle
I was reading a rice burner advert and it referred to turbo chargers as "bolt-on". Yeah, I guess there are bolts that hold them on...

Where was everybody when "bolt-on" turbo kits were a dollar or a phone call away as advertised in Pano.

Otto · 02-19-2002, 03:46 PM

If you guys want some really bolt on horsepower, let me bolt on one of my big motors to your trans! Straight bolt on! OTTO

sammyg2 · 02-19-2002, 04:53 PM

You can't turbo a 914! :-)

Lesse, bolt on HP......
Split fire spark plugs, thats got to be good for at least 20%,
K&N air filter, another 10%,
E-ram, another 5%,
Tornado air cleaner insert, 10%,
Pro-lube, 5%,
how am I doin so far?

Seriously, there is nothing "bolt on" about a turbo on these cars. Lots of work. Who ever said doing a tune up was right on. Just make sure your throttle body is opening all the way. Sometimes they don't, and that robs hp.

Mark sold my old turbo car, and the new owner sold the engine complete with the turbo so hopefully it will show up again.

Several different companies used to sell turbo kits for 914s. I spoke to the owner of one of those companies, he told he he got a thousand phone calls, but only sold a few of them.
I wish the kits were still around.
I see one for sale once in a while, maybe I should snag one, but I am cheap and will probably make another instead of buying one.
The biggest lesson I learned from doing that turbo project? Keep it as simple as possible. That approach lowers how much boost you can make, but is also less stressful. :-)
Jeff took another approach, going big. His car is going to be killer fast when he gets done.

oredith · 02-20-2002, 10:10 PM

ok.. went out to test the new external wastegate..

16.07psi @ 5736rpm in 3rd gear before pinging and short shifting on 6 months old 92 octane (short shift, meaning the motor was still pulling VERY strong, probably would have pulled until 7k, or the motor fly apart, which ever comes first).. the new injectors for the new motor will be 440cc, and should solve the pinging problem.. looks like 18psi will not be a challange at all..

Brad Roberts · 02-21-2002, 12:39 AM

I think about the turbo conversion daily Jeff. Then I remember we are dealing with 914 people who would want the turbo stuff for free so they could duplicate it. LOL

Seriously. The hot setup would be to do a Motronic crank triggered, injected, and intercooled single variable vane turbo.

The engine alone would run about 6k to build BEFORE all of the turbo kit pieces. Otherwise you would have people suing you over the fact that they burnt up their 190k mile stock 2.0 engine after slapping on a conversion.

You know I have ALL the resources to make a kit and bring it to market, but how many kits can we actually sell ?? Can you get me 20 confirmed orders with deposit ? Sell a kit for 2200$ ?

These BBS's and mailing lists are places where people can talk a lot of smack. Most people "want" everything, but most of them wont pay for it.

B

SteveStromberg · 02-21-2002, 06:37 AM

How about a NOS system thats bolt on. Steve

oredith · 09:20 AM

i think Brad's point would be even more applicable if someone were to make a bolt-up NOS system.. i tend to think people will blew their motors up easier with NOS, than with a turbo..

Brad..
if >I< were to make any type of "kit" for a turbo, i think i would limit it to making headers that would run up into the engine bay, have a standard flange for a turbonetic turbo, and then the exhaust side mated up to a "good" muffler with exhaust hangers that works off the stock pick-up points on the tranny.. with the other end of the exhaust having a standard turbonetics exhaust flange.. weld a O^2 sensor bung in the pipe, and provide a plug with the kit, so that there's the option to take the plug out for a O^2 sensor.. this kit would EXCLUDE turbo, so that people would have the option to get different turbos from turbonetics (which are pretty dirt cheap if you look around on the import forums), and you market the kit as a bolt-up "offroad" turbo-header setup. with disclaimers saying fuel system upgrades are strongly recommended, etc..

i definitely agree with you, that there probably ISN'T 20 people around, who would actually dish out the dough for a turbo kit.. i've been on the receiving end of A LOT of e-mail inquiries.. and so far, there has been -zero- additional turbo 914 that has surfaced (to my knowledge).. at the same time, i think a big part of why those interests go un-explored, is because people do not want to, or don't have time to, do the fabrication.. if there was a header kit, that allowed everything to be bolted up, so that the interested party can just BUY the part, and know that the pieces will FIT, and that boltup header kit was in the ??1000?? range for pipes done in SS, i think there would be more interested parties..

if >I< were to make a production run at this, i'd probably even take the time to weld a heater box around the exhaust, for those wussies who want heat..

the heat generated from a turbo system should teach them!..

====
oh yeah.. forgot.. there would have to be some HUGE disclaimers stating that the oil cooling system will have to be upgraded
====

Steve M · 10:07 AM

Sking read this!!
If you want more horsepower.

Remove your airfilter and its housing
Cut down your heat exchangers up to the end of the transmission.
Advance your ignition by say..what 15 degrees?
Adjust idle to 2k rpm.
Duct tape a bible to your back window.
Put in a double shot of 200hp NOS.
Watch the 'Fast and the Furious' with a critical eye.

Phew...where the hell did that come from..
SMOB

mike mueller · 02-21-2002, 10:25 AM

I know the turbos are a lot more popular in the VW bug world and the cheapest bolt-on kit I've seen is $1600, which is pretty darn good considering that you get every little bracket and hose clamp needed. But I doubt he is selling them left and right.

Jeff,
Develping a bolt-on kit for the 914 to commercially sell would be fine if you "want" to do it, but if you think you are going to make tons of money at it, forget about it.

Ideally, the better way to do it is to develop your own installation, and offer piece parts that the average person could not fab themselves such as the exhaust. Supply a BOM and maybe sources for some of the other parts needed in the kit. This way you'd have less overhead and liability.

oredith · 02-21-2002, 10:45 AM

to be clear, i have no intent of producing "kits".. i am in agreement with Brad, that there's probably very little actual sales, or else those turbo 914 companies from the years past would still be around..

i think part of the problem, is that the companies have tried to do -too much-.. trying to provide the FULL SOLUTION, what i was suggesting is, IF i had the facility like some others, to bent and weld up exhaust piping, i would produce a "kit" that only consisted of the plumbing, no turbo, no guarantee.. etc.. simply "this has worked on someone else's car, if you want to have a turbo, and don't want to do your own welding & test fitting, here it is".. and i think there IS a profit margine to be had, if the product was basically like a standard exhaust, it just happens to have a convinient gap in the system for a turbo..

71-916 · 02-24-2002, 12:14 AM

It was made by crown manufacturing in 73-74, it places the turbo opposite the starter, it does not have a wastegate, it uses the original fuel injection. The throttlebody is mounted to the inputside on the turbo, the original wiring harness will even reach, it oils out of the hole for the oil pressure sensor and remounts the sensor inlline to the turbo. the oil returns through a line into a special valve cover. only non bolt on work needed is to drill a couple holes for the air hoses to go through the sheetmetal, and for the return spring on the throttle body. I bought it off of the infamous IAN, if you are a rennlist member and have been for a while you know who i speak of, heh. OH !IT HAS HEAT EXCHANGERS!. the turbo it uses is quite worn, and i have never got it rebuilt. dont even ask, its not for sale, but, anyone who wants to make a similar setup can take a look at the pcis, i ahve taken, i have a couple on the motor and a couple off and a few pics form the instruction book.

http://members.aol.com/madd001//turbopic1.jpg

http://members.aol.com/madd001//turbopic2.jpg

http://members.aol.com/madd001//turbopic3.jpg

http://members.aol.com/madd001//turbopic4.jpg

http://members.aol.com/madd001//1.jpg

http://members.aol.com/madd001//2.jpg

http://members.aol.com/madd001//3.jpg

i could snap a few more pics if anyone really want to see more.

Paul

914turbo · 02:34 AM

Thanks for posting the pics of the 914 Crown turbo system. It's great to see what the original components of the kit looked like. I recently purchased a 73 914 2.0 w/ turbo. It originally had the Crown kit installed. Over the years it "evolved" as the PO added exhaust manifolds (custom fabbed/no heat), waste gate, intercooler, water injection, ignition boost retard module, permatune, EGT pickup, cockpit adjustable boost, etc.

I received the Crown "installation manual" with mine as well. I've been researching the Crown kit to see what turbo was used in the kit. Best guess is it's a (modified) Rayjay. Clarks Corvair http://www.corvair.com appears to have components for this Rayjay including a pre-assembled turbine module. If you have located another source for rebuild, parts. info, etc. I'd really like to share/compare notes. If it wasn't too much trouble, I'd also like some close up pics of some of the kit components.

norustscott · norustscott's Garage

...placing the turbo in the engine compartment is just wrong...what does a turbo "glow" @ 1200+ degrees? To have it located just 12" from the cooling fan intake is asking for a hot engine.

The Crown system is a great aproach. I guess you could section the turbo from the engine or snorkel the fan intake up to the engine cover, may help...Take ques from the Crown system. They did some home work. I like the fact that they placed the turbo in an aircooled friendly location, took the time to engineer heat exchangers and an oiling system that incorporates the stock oil pressure switch. I did not see, in the picture provided, the sheet metal divider at the rear of the engine. An important piece to section the turbo heat from the engine bay.

With a turbo you don't need heat exchangers... just fabriacte an air box around the turbo, have a winter and summer ducting schematic and you have heat as well as a way to section and carry off turbo heat. My thoughts, well worth the price...$0.00.

914turbo · 02-08-2003, 08:59 AM

Hey Scott,
Love your idea about shrouding the turbo and using it as your heat exchanger. I have a crown turbo kit and I currently have issues with heat from the exhaust side of the turbo "cooking" the trunk floor and carpet above. I purchased a DEI Turbo Heat Barrier kit and plan on installing it shortly. Another idea for heat would be to duct around a auxillary oil cooler with a fan like they do for the heater kits in bugs.

From what I have read, I am not sure if heater boxes on a turbo 914 are such as "hot" idea.

Reason being that you want to retain as much heat in the exhaust manifolds leading up to the turbo to reduce turbo lag and help the turbo operate more efficiently. I am planning on wrapping all the exhaust manifolds in heat tape and eventually fabbing new ones from 75-76 manifolds and having all the components ceramic coated.

Rob

tod914 · 02-08-2003, 10:40 AM

Is supercharging an option? I had a 1990 corrado - no lag at all with the supercharger. Just curious if its feasable.

John Kelly · 02-08-2003, 10:52 AM

I put 100hp nitrous in my Ghia about 10 years ago. It was simple and no doubt about the effect. The engine was a well built conservative 1776 type one with all the goodies for 7000-8000 rpm. Never had a problem. I did however use a Jacobs Nitrous Mastermind which probably had something to do with the lack of problems. Had about $1200 into it. Last time I checked you could get a fogger system for about $600? If your engine is strong a 40 hp boost would be pretty conservative/reasonable. Very few moving parts to screw up. If I wanted to go fast, I would do it again in a heart beat.

John www.ghiaspecialties.com

Dave at Pelican Parts · Dave at Pelican Parts's Garage

The main problem with superchargers in a 914 is packaging. If you go upright, you can use the fan belt to power a supercharger as well (or use the SC belt to run the fan) but there isn't any convenient place to run a good large belt on a 914 motor. At least, not one that lets you mount the charger without cutting holes in the firewall....

It can be done, but it's kinda non-trivial.

--DD