Speed Bleeders - 1 or 2 per caliper?

[TimW]

After much consideration I’ve decided to go with the Speed Bleeders vs. the Motive Products Pressure Bleeder.

I just want to double check that indeed I do need two Speed Bleeders per caliper, vs. having one Speed Bleeder and one original style bleeder per caliper.

I ask because some of what I read indicates you only need to bleed the top bleeder, in which case two Speed Bleeders per would be overkill.

[Paint Legend]

Tim-

You're right! You only need the bleeder on top, so you only need four. I learned this after purchasing eight!

Regards,
Tom

[TimW]

Let me know if you want to sell your extras.

[Tiramisu]

I got speed bleeders on both the top and bottom of the calipers. I dont know about just bleeding the top one only as air came out of each when I did it. Those speed bleeders are a great invention..a must have for sure.

[HMeeder]

You really only need one per caliper. Air rising to the top the way it does and all. I have stock bleeders on the bottom and use those for draining the calipers, and the speed bleeders on top for the bleeding process.

IMHO getting the extra set is a waste of $30 that would be better applied elsewhere in the car.

[TimW]

I’m starting to wonder if the whole Speed Bleeder vs. Pressure Bleeder, bleed the top vs. bleed both issue actually “depends”.

I mean, neither the Speed Bleeder or the Pressure Bleeder systems are truly “one man” (or woman) for the weekend wrench who bleeds once a year. But either would probably be fine for the racer who bleeds more regularly (weekly/daily).

Same probably goes for bleeding the top vs. both. Bleeding both is wise when you only do it once a year, but for the regular, bleeding just the top may be okay (and bleed both every now and then)? I don’t know for sure, I’m just speculating. What I do know is from the posts I read is there are as many opinions as there are options.

I do have a few other questions. For the Speed Bleeder fans, how do you bleed? Do you have one person on the pedal and another watching for bubbles at the caliper? Or do you just pump enough fluid through to be reasonable sure you got it? And for the Pressure Bleeder fans, how do you deal with the proportioning value (or do you just have a T)? The tech article suggest after pressure bleeding you go back and manually bleed to get the air out of the proportioning value, but that seems redundant (but necessary).

The only way I can see bleeding the brakes on a 914 being truly one-man is to have a T rather than a proportioning value, and use the Pressure Bleeder.

[SummerSledSix]

Tim, I think you're right about the "T". I wanted to ensure one-man bleed-ability, and got the speed bleeders and the Motive products pressure bleeder. My proportioning valve wouldn't give up its air bubbles without someone stomping on the pedal, in addition to me watching for bubbles.

Sounds like I overkilled with both. To those of you with more experience, what does the speed bleeder valve buy you over the stock ones???

[HMeeder]

John;

I find the speed bleeders to be a truly one-man job. I mean, that's what they were designed for, right? I could never conquer the prop valve problem alone however (for that you do need a pal at the pedal.) I replaced the valve with a 'T' about a year ago and I am very happy with the results. Many, many, (many!) different opinions exist on the value and safety of the 'T' but in my case I have stock calipers all the way around and have upgraded to semi-metallic (Metal Master) pads up front and stock spec pads in the rear. Once the brakes are warmed up, the balance is excellent and I love the pedal feel I get (I never could stomach the feeling of jamming my brake foot into a bucket of oatmeal.)

As for waiting to 'see' the bubbles emerge to ensure a good bleed, I make sure that I bleed about a half a cup of brake fluid out of each caliper in turn (making sure to never let the fluid reservoir pump dry) and then I do the whole process again. I never see the bubbles either, but I am a vigorous pumper and I move enough fluid to be sure the system is completely air free. After that I drive the car (carefully!) to see if any particular caliper doesn't seem to be behaving properly and that the pedal feel is strong and positive. Then I go home and bleed all 4 corneres one more time. A good brake bleed for me will take at least a quart of brake fluid. This may seem excessive, but brakes are too important to worry about wasting a few bucks on brake fluid.

ps Common wisdom has it that brake fluid should be flushed and changed yearly anyway. Brake fluid breaks down over time.

[TimW]

Thanks for the feedback Herb. What you described is pretty much what I figured. I guess I still need the comfort of actually seeing the clean fluid flow however, so for now my plan will be to follow the tech article and bleed with a pressure bleeder and follow-up with a two-man bleed to clear the proportioning valve. It seems to be a good compromise all around.

[SummerSledSix]

Herb, thanks for the reply. I'm still stumped; what does the speed bleeder do for you that the stock bleeder doesn't? I was seriously underwhelmed by the instructions on the blister pack. Are these things little check valves that allow one person to stomp and then inspect, or do you need to hook up vacuum, or what???

[HMeeder]

John;

The Speed Beeder is a very simple 'ball and spring' one-way check valve. No vacuum needed. Regular bleeders are just tubes that let anything (fluid or air) flow just as easily any either direction. That's why normal bleeding takes 2 people. One of them has to be at the nipple to shut it before air gets sucked back into the system. The Speed Bleeder, on the other hand, has a ball inside it held by a spring. As you pump the brakes, the ball is pushed out of the way and allows brake fluid to pass. When you stop pumping and pressure in the system drops, the ball is slammed back into its seat by the spring, preventing air from getting in. I also run some plumbers teflon tape around each bleeder to ensure a good seal.

Seriously, the biggest hassle is having to get in and out of the car to loosen each caliper in turn.

Here's the sequence

1. You make sure that the reservoir is full, loosen one Speed Bleeder (the other 3 are tight) and get in the driver's seat.

2. Pump the brakes normally. The brake pedal will feel weird because you don't build very much system pressure (As a matter of fact, the brake pedal will about hit the floor on every stroke.)You don't really need to pump as vigorously as you would in a normal 2 man bleeding job. All you are doing is moving fluid through the system and hopefully carrying all the air with it. Be very careful that in your desire to build system pressure (which you won't be able to) you don't pump the reservoir dry, because you'll end up having to do the whole thing over, having sucked air in through the top. If you listen carefully, you'll hear fluid squirting into the can. When air is in the fluid, it'll make a distinctive sound and on inspection, the fluid in your coffee can will look foamy. Once the fluid is running clear, it'll make almost no noise and the foam will be gone.

3. Now tighten bleeder #1, top off the the fluid and go do the same for bleeder #2... etc. And round and round the car you go.

You will, in the course of bleeding, do about 12 (or more) laps around the car. Cheap entertainment for the neighbors who are already convinced that your are 'not quite right in the head'

Good luck! Once you get the hang of your Speed Bleeders you'll wonder what you ever did without them!

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

The only time you ever need to use the lower bleeder valves is when you are flushing the brake system--getting all of the old fluid out, and putting all new fluid in. If you simply [b]bleed[\b] the bottom valve, you will never get any air out. There are several people on the Rennlist 914 list that have experienced that.

Brakes should be flushed at least every other year. More often is fine, but isn't generally needed unless you put your car on the track. In which case, new brake fluid for every event weekend is a Very Good Idea.

--DD

[SummerSledSix]

Herb,
Thank you so much for the explanation! Guess I'll use the "Power Bleeder" to spray the garden for bugs . Why don't the Speed Bleeder weenies include instructions like yours with their stuff? Do you have to be a member of a secret club first, or something?

Thanks again -

John

[Paul_Heery]

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but…

After doing the two-man mambo round-and-round my car bleeding the brakes (loosen, “Press”, “Release. I said effing release”, tighten), I decided to invest in some Speed Bleeders. I figured it would allow me to do the job myself and not further jeopardize my relationship with my 17-year-old son. I’ve ordered four of them from Pelican and I am waiting for them to arrive.

However, in checking the Speed Bleeder site, I noticed the following:

"metric wrenches will not work with Speed Bleeder even though it might have a metric sized thread. You have to use an inch wrench or SAE wrench size"

My first question is, what size wrench do you need? I’ve accumulated various metric wrenches but I’m sure that I’ll probably not have the right size SAE wrench for the bleeders.

Second, how did you guys install these things? Did you just yank out the stock bleed valves and quickly insert the Speed Bleeders while brake fluid happily spluged all over the place?

Any advice would be appreciated.

[Serge914]

Paul

I alway used a 8mm wrench with them , no problem whatsoever.

As for your second question, the answer is yes, good fun.

[SummerSledSix]

Paul,
I remember having to use a 7mm for the "originals" in my teener, and I believe the 8mm for the speed bleeder. Got 'em if you need 'em. Don't forget that brake fluid eats paint, even "second hand" brake fluid that winds up on your clothes or incompletely wiped hands (oh yeah - gloves ).

John

[HMeeder]

Paul;

Concur on the 7mm for originals and 8mm for the speeders.

You may want to consider doing a complete brake system fluid swap at this time. You can try the old "swap em, quick! Oh crap! aaaahhh, my eyes, my eyes!" It's not nearly as fun as you think it is. Now is the time to drain and re-fill. It doesn't take that much longer and since you will have to bleed the system anyway, you may as well. Just my $.02