Arg!!! MONSTER Oil Leak after Pushrod Seal Replacement and Valve Ddjustment

[frank]

I wish there were a much stronger word that would express my frustration more accurately.

Okay, so I am not surprised, but no less frustrated had I been, but I put the motor back in and have been patiently replacing nuts, bolts, and seals over the past 3 weeks. Last night... 'round 1 am, I poured in the new oil and went to bed.

I woke up this morning to find a huge puddle of oil under the passenger side rocker box... It looked to me like that's where it was leaking from and confirmed it when I removed the valve cover and a bunch more oil came out.

I did not drain the oil until after I put the motor back in, so I didn't have this oil leak problem until I poured in the new oil.

I collected about 1 quart of oil and it is still dripping... probably doesn't help that I have the car lifted really high on the driver's side.

So what did I do wrong?... I'm sure there's plenty.

I had removed the motor to replace leaking push-rod seals and now that area seems like oil goes straight from the oil-filler and out the rocker box. I haven't removed the driver side valve cover yet, but I am about to.

I thought I was certain the rods were seated correctly but maybe I didn't... I dread that I may need to remove the motor again to investigate.

Any thoughts on how to diagnose this?

[bowlsby]

Wow. Chassis lifted really high on drivers side with a passenger side leak? No leak before this work began? Obviously it was something done during this recent work.

There is no need to remove the engine to simply replace pushrod tube seals. Its probably something simple and obvious if you get under there and look. One or more seals apprently did not get properly seated? Was the drainplug reinstalled? Is the engine bottom clean so the leak site can be easily identified?

What exactly are 'rocker boxes' ... do you mean the valve covers?

[frank]

Yeah, lifted as high as it could go without flipping my car over. :-D. My car has been lowered so there is nothing to look at when the wheels are on the ground and I didn't want to be swimming in the pool of oil by crawling under the passenger-side. With the clean-up compleate and source of the leak identified I will be raising the passenger-side from here-on. I actually removed the engine to identify my oil leak sources which I had been previously told was in the oil-pump gasket. It was easier for me to pull, work-on, and clean the motor removed.

So, the leak is most definitely in the passenger-side rocker-box (where the rocker arms / valve adjustment is done). There is no question that I created this leak during my latest efforts. The question is how? What did I do wrong? I am not a rocket surgeon or mechanic for that matter but I am not detered.

The leak is not coming from the pushrod seals, rather the rocker box is filled with oil and leaking out the valve covers.

I suppose I need an education on pushrods to better understand how oil flows and where I could experience leaks particularly if a valve adjustment is not correctly executed.

I made three videos ti get a really good look at the pushrods and rockers but there is nothing obvious to me.

[bowlsby]

Pushrod tubes on the 914 are called 'oil return tubes' on other Porsche/VW engines of the same basic design. You tilted your car so extremely that the oil sump drained out the tubes into the valve covers. Probably should not have leaked though if all the gaskets were intact and well seated. You have valve cover gaskets installed right? I usually hang out on the 914world.com site, post any tech questions there and you will get lots of help.

I would find a different way to elevate your car, it sounds unsafe as well as lets the engine oil run out.

[frank]

Bowlsby,

Thank you for the feedback.

Let me clarify some things. I put in 4 quarts plus half a bottle of Lucas in my Raby 2056 with the wheels on the ground. When I went into the garage the next morning, wheels still on the ground, there was a huge puddle of oil on the floor. I only lifted it the way I did to investigate the source of the leak. I know where it is coming from but I don't know why it would leak that way. Even when tilted in the past, it has never leaked like this but again all four wheels were on the ground and the car was level.

Is the rocker box supposed to fill with oil even? Presumably other cars have oil return tubes and not pushrods in those tubes and so it makes sense to me that oil would be in the tubes and in the rocker box.

The wheels are back on the ground again and I will certainly ensure I place jack stands around to make ir more safe... thank you for the reminder.

I will take a closer look tomorrow.

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

The rocker box should usually be above the level of oil in the sump when the engine is off. The way oil is supposed to get there is by traveling up the inside of the hollow pushrods. In practice, it also sloshes out the pushrod tubes when the car develop lateral Gs in a turn, and I think windage from the crank spinning actually throws oil up the pushrod tubes on one side as well.

Did you spill any oil while you were filling the engine? I have done that--spilled a small amount of oil while filling, to come back later and find a HUGE pool of oil on the ground under the motor... I think oil grows by at least a factor of 10 between the bottle and the floor.

--DD

[frank]

Dave,

IF I spilled any oil... and I maybe I did, it wasn't a quart of oil. I will investigate that possibility further though. My motor is so clean and dry right now (aside from the current leak) that I can see everything.

When I removed the valve cover, it was full up to the top of the pushrod tubes with oil.

I let the motor drain overnight before I refilled it and I don't think 4.5 quarts of oil would have caused such an overflow. I even tilted and lowered the car in every direction to get the most oil possible out of it. I am baffled.

The motor has not been turned on since I first pulled it out 3 weeks ago, so I know this isn't a pressure leak. This is a gravity leak that I don't have a clue as to how it has happened. I should have gone with my original plan of using cheaper oil to flush it out but I guess I can now brag that I flushed my motor with 20w-50. Ugh!

Could it be that a pushrod did not seat properly? Based on the videos I took, they all seem to go straigh back.

[TheCabinetmaker]

Originally Posted by frank

Dave,

IF I spilled any oil... and I maybe I did, it wasn't a quart of oil. I will investigate that possibility further though. My motor is so clean and dry right now (aside from the current leak) that I can see everything.

When I removed the valve cover, it was full up to the top of the pushrod tubes with oil.

I let the motor drain overnight before I refilled it and I don't think 4.5 quarts of oil would have caused such an overflow. I even tilted and lowered the car in every direction to get the most oil possible out of it. I am baffled.

The motor has not been turned on since I first pulled it out 3 weeks ago, so I know this isn't a pressure leak. This is a gravity leak that I don't have a clue as to how it has happened. I should have gone with my original plan of using cheaper oil to flush it out but I guess I can now brag that I flushed my motor with 20w-50. Ugh!

Could it be that a pushrod did not seat properly? Based on the videos I took, they all seem to go straigh back.

I didn't see it indicated, but is only one valve cover filled with oil to the level of the pushrod tubes, or are both valve covers filled this high with oil? it wouldbe very strange for a car sitting level to only have one side's valve cover fill with oil.

If a pushrod was not seated correctly, that would cause valve operation problems, not cause an oil leak, unless you ran the motor with a bent pushrod, and that bent rod wore thru the pushrod tube.

if both valve covers are filled with oil to the level of the top of the pushrod tubes, then I'd say th engine was over filled, the oil level (with a level car) should not be that high.

even with an overfill, the valve cover gaskets should not leak on a static motor (ie non running)

I always use new gaskets after a valve adjustment, and i glue the gasket to the valvecover (but no glue to the gasket / head surface). if you dont glue the gasket to the cover, the gasket can wiggle out and cause a leak, but that leak would only be apparent when the engine has been ran, as the oil level should not be high enough to leak out of a faulty valve cover gasket.

if the leak is from the pushrod tube seal, again that would only leak if the oil level was too high if the motor is not ran. it is very easy to have one of the o-rings that seal the pushrod tube to get pinched during assembly.

so maybe the oil was over filled, and you have a failed valve cover gasket or failed pushrod tube o-ring failure.

normally you should not need to tilt the car to assure full oil drain, all the oil will drain with the car level, assuming your draining it from the drain plug.

if you drained the oil with the car tilted, then not all the oil would be removed, then if you went ahead and filled up with 4.5 quarts of oil, you'd have more oil in th motor than the 4.5 quarts, since not all the old oil was removed. could this be how the motor got over filled?

did you check the dip stick marks with the car level?

Could it be that if you have an external oil filter and/ or cooler, that when you tilted the car, oil from the cooler or filter drained out into the case after you correctly filled the case with oil, thus you have too high a level becuase there is now air in the cooler/filter, and associated hoses?

[frank]

Cabinetmaker,

To your point, it is very strange indeed. As posted, the car was level with all 4 wheels on the ground, I poured in 4.5 quarts of oil. In the morning I found a huge puddle on the passengerside where oil had been leaking from the valve cover. It is only leaking from the passenger side.

It does have a slight lean to the passenger side after each time I take the rear wheels off the ground and lower it back to the ground. It usually push down on the driver side to get it level... I am sure there are shock replacements in my near future. I don't think it would be enough to cause the leak.

I very much want to believe that I overfilled it but I even replaced the oil sump gaskets and cleaned the screen. I changed out the oil pump gaskets as well. So all this activity pretty much removed all the places where oil collects but I could be very wrong about that. I can only guess that an overfill situation occured because the oil capacity accounts for oil throughout the motor not just what sits in the pan so the 4.5 quarts I put in went straight to the pan.. but I don't know the capacity of the pan.

In total, I collected 2 quarts of oil off my floor. 1 quart I found on the floor and in the rocker box, and a 2nd quart that I believe was lost by tilting my car the way I did when I was investigating.

My dipstick is at the lower mark indicating I need 1 quart so all the evidence thus far indicates it was overfilled. I will put 1 quart in and see if it drains out again... if it does drain out.. I will be back at square 1 trying to figure out what went wrong.

[John Rogers]

There are several things than can make the puddle, the gasket on the valve cover slipped when you put the valve cover back on? The gasket did not seal because the bale has lost it's tension. Finally it could be the valve cover gasket surface is not flat and even so a very small part did not seal. I made an article on the site here on adding tabs so the gasket can not slip on the install. I also made a steel form that was in the shape of the gasket that I would use to check for valve cover flatness and could flatten the edge if needed. The weak bale can be fixed by bending it so it presses on the valve cover tighter.

If the car is not sitting level then an over fill of oil can easily cause a leak out the push rod tube or valve cover gasket.

[Kirmizi]

Originally Posted by john rogers

There are several things than can make the puddle, the gasket on the valve cover slipped when you put the valve cover back on? The gasket did not seal because the bale has lost it's tension. Finally it could be the valve cover gasket surface is not flat and even so a very small part did not seal. I made an article on the site here on adding tabs so the gasket can not slip on the install. I also made a steel form that was in the shape of the gasket that I would use to check for valve cover flatness and could flatten the edge if needed. The weak bale can be fixed by bending it so it presses on the valve cover tighter.

If the car is not sitting level then an over fill of oil can easily cause a leak out the push rod tube or valve cover gasket.

Another thing to check is that your valve cover seated properly after you reinstalled it. The wire bale will still click into place, even if the cover is not aligned correctly.
I've gotten into the habit of pulling the cover down after latching the bale to ensure it's sealed.

[frank]

I am not worried so much about the gasket. I bought the thicker gaskets from 914rubber on eBay and the fit very snug although it is obvious I didn't have it seated correctly. The tension on the bale is very firm and not easy to remove once in place. I reseated the gasket / valve cover and nothing has leaked since.

I am more concerned tas to why oil filled the rocker box on the 0assenger side.

Thank you for the thoughts gentlemen. I have actually not done anything further with the issue as I have plenty of other things to get done on the car and it has given me time to think things through with all the feedback I am getting. Once I finish the carb and exhaust reinstall and maybe the sticky caliper issue I am going to figure out the oil leak issue... but it really ia leaning toward an overfilled scenario.

Thanks again to everyone for their feedback so far. I hope I can get this all cleared up by Thursday as we have an overnighter in Santa Maria with my Son's football team on Friday.

[Kirmizi]

An idea that may work for you....
My teener sits very low also, so performing work at ground level is virtually impossible.
For any maintenance beneath the car, I'll back it onto ramps.
If I'm adjusting valves, I'll raise one side, support it on a jack stand and partially remove the corresponding ramp to enable rotation of a tire (and the engine).