The Future of the 944...

[roadierfl]

My experiences with Porsche overall is that if you change the oil and filter every 1500 miles, air filters 6 months, change the wires, cap and rotor once a year and replace all the relays at the same time, that the only real problems you run in to are pretty much fluid leaks.

Now, this is my first watercooled Porsche, so I could be way off track - guess time will tell, but I'm expecting that regular maintanence - even when you think the car doesn't need it - pays real dividends when it comes to high $ repairs.

So, the questions.........


Are they showing their age?

Of course - Most 944's were owned by the yuppie set who didn't give a cr*p in the first place. They were driven hard until they broke down and then passed on for a newer car.

My car was previously owned by an enthusiast - the only previous owner, so I know what was done to it and when.
There was only minor neglect really......the AC was redone, the engine and trans rebuilt, etc. The only real issues I have are that my power steering pump is loose, the sunroof doesn't work and one of the power steering lines is leaking (surprise). Everything else is just cosmetic.

Are new owners cheaper?

I'm guessing, yes. I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who loved the cars in the 80's and couldn't afford one back then.
Some may jump at the chance of picking one up for $5-7k without realizing that it's an ongoing cost. Some people also baulk at paying every 30,000 miles for a belt change and major service when the car is "just fine"

Are you being a crabass?

Possibly, but I don't know you well enough to tell LOL

Just my 2¢

[adrian jaye]

Sorry I have to disagree,

Mine has been (5 years) the most reliable car I've ever owned.

the S2 has 211BHP 208ft/lbs of Torque. so its not exactly underpowered.

Even the S, has some decent power

You gotta drive these cars like you stole them and get them into the power bands which what a lot of NEW owners dont do.

Again I dont agree that they are over complicated, I've found mine easy to work on. They are only hard when you dont have the "CORRECT" workshop manual, and try things by hearsay or a Haynes !

Any sports car if it breaks will break big time. You want a cheap reliable dirtbox, by a Hundah, Daewoo a ford, or a GM generic!

44's rock

Originally posted by Moneyguy1
Blackfoot has it right: "And they aren't the most reliable cars". One has to ask why the 944 is so "cheap" to start with. One possibility is that there hasn't been a 4 cylinder Porsche since the 912E. The 944 engine is overcomplicated, underpowered and undersized, not living up to what people expect of a "real Porsche". So, when someone buys one only because it carries the Porsche badge, many are disappointed at the lack of power (951 models excepted). They are difficult to work on, and when they break, the breaks are unnecessarily expen$ive.

Mine has gotten the best of care, but has been "up on blocks" for a few months now, after eating up two fuel pumps, one brand new that ran for under ten minutes before tanking out (yes, a genuine brand new Bosch). I really do not know if it is worth the effort to continue pouring money and time into something that I can't trust. And, if the car has required "heavy work", like a total reseal, I have had this kind of work done by a Porsche certified garage. The "lighter" work (suspension, brakes, electrical) I do myself. And yet, despite reading here about folks who claim 150k and more without mishap, I have found the 944 less reliable than a 1977 924 I had for years, and a 912 I had before that. I have three pages of repairs and replacements in the 6 years I have owned the car; a car with a certified 68 k on the clock.

Love the looks and handling, Hate the drive train.

[adrian jaye]

Originally posted by roadierfl
My experiences with Porsche overall is that if you change the oil and filter every 1500 miles, air filters 6 months, change the wires, cap and rotor once a year and replace all the relays at the same time, that the only real problems you run in to are pretty much fluid leaks.

BINGO ! no truer words have been spoken (although I do mine every 6k)

[adrian jaye]

The future of the 944 is already here
it
is
called
the

"Cayenne"

[tifosiman]

There are no bad 944's. Only bad current/previous owners.


Being the owner of a 944, and having spent time speaking to, and reading/writing to, many 924/944 owners over the past 5 years, I can say that most 944 owners are dolts.

What did Tifo just say?! Yes, I said it. I am not trying to start a flame war here, so I need to qualify the above statement.

There are 3 distinct groups of 944 owners:

1. The DE/Autoxer/Enthusiast/Fanatic
2. The "I bought it because it was cheap and can't afford to, or are to stupid to, maintain it properly" owners
3. The concourse, factory-did-it-this-way-so-it-should-be-so owners.

There are a goodly amount of #1's, I'd say it's about 20% of owners. I am one of these. I drive the heck out my car at events on the weekends, but the car only sees about 3K miles per year. Everything mechanical is always kept up, and I modify/change things to suit my vision of what the car should be, but nothing from Autozone's Jessie James or TunerZ section makes it onto my car. My car is not concourse, but you can tell someone loves it. Usually there is always some part on my workbench waiting to be installed or swapped.

Due to the price of entry into 944 ownership, many #2's get into the picture, unfortunately. This leads to a downward spiral that just gets worse and worse. These owners never do the routine mainanance, let their car's paint go to hell, it looks like a family of bedioun sheephearders with a McDonalds nearby live in the car. I'd say that #2's represent about 75%. These owners really are the same owner that might have bought a 1990 Toyota Terdcell at a Buy-Here-Pay-Here, but saw an ad in the local Auto-Snaker for a Porch and thought "Hey, I can afford that!". The Terdcell probably would have looked just as bad in a few years as their Porch does on the interior and exterior, but the Terdcell probably would be able to put up with the mechanical neglect better than the Porch.

#3's are a rare breed. 5% of owners are #3's. These are the guys who are looking for the missing black interior bolt covers, or want to know the correct factory-supplied oil filter, or fret over the fact that they got a new stone chip. Their cars are cared for, loved, relgiously maintained (usually by a mechanic, not the owner). The car is often taken to concourse shows, but rarely driven in driving events, if at all.

911's would be in the same boat if the price of entry into the game was as cheap as the 944 price. But it is not, most of that has to do with the fact that the 911 is the car that people think of when the word "Porsche" is uttered. The 911 will always have a strong following and, let's face it, it is a great car and since it has been made for many, many years (40), it should be.

Anyway, that's my take. If someone buys a clean example, that has been loved, and they continue to upkeep and maintain the car as it should be, a 944 will last forever.

[roadierfl]

I'm a mix between #1 and #3.......with #2 dicatating if I'm #1 or #3 LOL!!

I like doing my own repairs when I can (tools and fear allowing) which puts me in #1, and sometimes when I don't have the $'s to send out a repair job (#2), I also have a go at it.

On the interior, I want every screw cover, I don't want any rips, tears, or nicks in the upholstery and carpeting, and absolutely no sun fading or cracks in my dash....so that puts me at a #3

But that's just what I WANT - doesn't mean that it's that way because of practicality, and #2 LOL!!!

[ronin]

Originally posted by AaronM
I have a good understanding with mechanics. If it's broken or going to break, fix it. I'll find a way to pay.

ironically very true. consider how many unnecessary things we want (but don't really need) for which we always seem to find the money. just like the guy that spends thousands on go-fast look-cool goodies for his car and then doesn't have enough for belts or a water pump when they come due

[AaronM]

Originally posted by ronin
ironically very true. consider how many unnecessary things we want (but don't really need) for which we always seem to find the money. just like the guy that spends thousands on go-fast look-cool goodies for his car and then doesn't have enough for belts or a water pump when they come due

Yup, when I was in college my friends always wondered a few things: Why didn't I have cable? Why did I only have a 15 year old TV that I'd pulled from a dumpster? Why didn't I have a huge DVD/CD collection? Why didn't I ever worry about being able to afford eating out? And how could I afford the Porsche?

Well, the answer to the first 3 questions is the last question, and when I ate out maybe once a month, it never accumulated to any money to worry about. It's all a matter of priorities. I have nice cars, a helluva lot of books, and a decent apartment. But I live on bologna sandwiches, and home-made "batch" meals like chicken soup, beef stew, or spaghetti where I can eat for a week on like $7 worth of food.

[Dantilla]

Originally posted by Dantilla
The future of the 944?

More of them will turn into race cars.

I just got a call. A guy wants to buy an '87 NA I've got sitting in a warehouse to turn into another race car. Good mechanicals, ratty interior. Perfect candidate.

First time I've quoted myself.

[ronin]

hmmm, is that like talking to yourself?

Aaron, that's pretty much how I bought mine years ago. my best friend asked me "how can you afford that??" my repy was, "well, I don't eat at McDonald's twice a day. I don't drink a 6-pack of Dr. Pepper every day. I don't smoke two packs of Marlboros per day..." (ad infinitum)

thirty to forty bucks per day saved by not buying crap can add up to a really nice car payment

[Britwrench]

For the future of the 944, look at the 924. As everyone here says, there are different types of owners. I've had two, the first one for four years and it had maybe three oil changes, one steering rack and engine mounts and I fixed the door windows. Oh yes, one set of tires. That was it.
The one I have now is a car with history from new and drives nice so I will maintain it.
944s in poor condition are parts cars. To repair them is more expensive than buying a good one. If you can't maintain and work on it yourself then it's not the car for you. As shop labor and parts prices increase it's not going to get any easier. The good cars will have value, the others won't.

[AaronM]

Originally posted by Britwrench
The good cars will have value, the others won't.

That's it in a nutshell.

Blue book for a perfect '86 951 like the one I'm picking up tomorrow is under $3,500. That's less than half the price the car is going for. And the car's not over-priced. The bad cars will keep blue books low and all that, but the good ones will be out there for the enthusiasts.

[btsave]

Mike,
I understand your frustration... I see the same attitude in what I do. People do not want to listen to advice and then pay for what it takes to make something right.

I also started as someone who bought the 944 because it was cheap... as a lark... but my pockets are deep enough, & I'm old enough to know, that if you want to enjoy any vehicle, you have to maintain it to a high standard. My $2500 83 944 has now passed $20k... but it's a sweet car.

People have to accept the fact that Porsche's of any type are expensive... they were expensive when new, sold in relatively limited quantities and are expensive to repair.

Like anything else, if the owner lets things go, when they, or the next owner, wants to bring it back to spec, it is even more expensive. We've all been there... for example, if the Previous owner occassionally treated the leather seats ($5 for oil) we wouldn't have to spend $500 for new leather covers.. etc.

Unfortunately, no one tells a new owner this. Sometimes, the PO (previous owner) just wants to pass a problem on to someone else. This happens in many used car transactions... but when buying a used Chevy, Ford or Honda, the repairs are relatively cheap because these cars are made to be mass produced and mass serviced...

I know I'm rambling here.... the future of the 944 is pretty straight forward... there will be very few left running... repair costs will escalate as the replacement parts become lower in demand and hence less are made... used parts from junk 944's will keep the better cars running. As they become more rare, prices will eventually increase to the point that the few remaining ones will become valuable.

The good news, Mike, is that the owners you deal with as time goes on will not even question the price. They will pay whatever it takes for it's money they have & peace of mind which you can provide..

Mike, you have one of the best reputations on the web and work one of the best shops I've ever seen in my years in the Classic Car hobby... you will do well....

Bart
www.classic-car-grouch.iwarp.com

[djnolan]

I bought a 85.5 944 with 130k for $1700 from a guy leaving town after he had dumped ~$9k in purchase and repair shop costs in to it. I don't know what a DIY could have done the work for. But he just gave up on the project, and what a shame. It was at some risk as I know a lot about cars but havenever dealt with a Porsche.

The car wasn't really running at the time but I nursed it back to running condition for a under $100 and can drive it in the left lane during rushhour and keep up with the new cars. I have a 87 NISSAN 300z but would prefer to drive the 944 due to the handling and balanced feel.

I do know you can't own old cars and consider them reliable if you don't fix things either before or as soon as they break, . You should also drive it conservatively and save the hard acceleration and braking for when you need it. Many less things will go wrong if you don't stress the car it out. You also need to keep fluids changed so wear and sludge don't cause premature failures.

It remains to be seen what other serious problems this car will develop. Right now the only one I know of is a differential leak that gonna cost some to repair. But I think I will get my money's worth out of it even if it is it the previous owners expense.

[CJFusco]

How exactly did you go about finding/resurrecting this thread, djnolan?

[callmethewander]

man if you don't like your '44 get rid of it and stop bein a bunch of crybabies! they're freakin 20 yr. old sports cars. show me ANY other 20 yr old sports car that's half as much fun, half as reliable, half as good looking and costs less to own and maintain and i'll kiss your ass in macy's window! i'm almost 50 yrs old and i've owned over 30 different cars from a mercury comet to a mercedes benz, the most expensive car i've owned was the only one i bought brand new. the cost of any vehicle has to be calculated from purchase price to selling price with everything in between, and so far my '44s are nowhere near the top. I personally think they are well worth it, and no they're not free, sorry

[callmethewander]

i may have gotten a little defensive there, sorry.

[djnolan]

Looking for info on the stupid differential seal repair. Any advice there?

[Rick V]

I don't see a good future for the cars. I bought mine as a project. The PO money shifted it. I re-built the head and have a good daily driver. It sees action about 3 days a week. I have pulled every trick out of my hat that I have to make this thing move and I have given up. I have resigned myself to the fact that it is a pig. A chip isn't going to help much since it only inhances the strong points of the car.They are simply cruisers.I knew that before I got into it. (I am a wrench, who specializes in Euro cars)
I will break it down like this. My BMW has a 30% smaller engine, weighs 800lbs more and has 100k more on the clock and it will flat out kill my 44, and it is an "s"
On the other side of the coin, the car is quiet, smooth, comfortable, and gets decent milage. They are fun to drive and after a long day standing on concrete, it is a nice relaxing way to get home.
As for the maintanance, they arn't that bad. My MB got a simple tune up and I was floored when I was handed the parts bill. Almost $200 for 12 plugs, 2 airfilters, 1 pollen filter and 1 fuel filter................ouch! That didn't include the oilchange. A 44 is a bargin to keep running.
I guess from my standpoint I see the vast majority of 44's falling into the hands of people who just want a "porsh" and will buy them because of the entry level price.
I like the car, and I will finish fixing it up, and have a nice driver. I will be happy with that. When I wanna raise a little hell, I will simply drive something else.

[djnolan]

It might be the BMW has a newer engine managment system than the 944. My 98 explorer 4.0l SOHC will almost keep up with the 944 too, because the engine and emision systems is much more sophisticated. It has SOHC, distributorless ignition, sequential injection, better MAF, 4 O2 sesnors, more sensore and certainly a bigger computer. The 944 emission systems was one of the early computerized management designs, I imagine. Does anyone know moore's law?

But I have never driven anything that sounds anywhere near as sweet as the 944 when I put my foot down. It gets my vote for port tuning, and flow management, etc.
(A 318 weighs 3500lbs?)