Colapsed valve lifter

[Vic Rattlehead]

Hi guys.

I'm pretty sure I've got a valve lifter/cam follower ( or 2 lol ) down. Not just sticking, but beyond the point of no return as it's taking longer to settle down from the tel tale "CLACK" As it's my daily drive, I've resigned myself to taking it to a german cars specialist or even the local porsche center to have it check over and fixed.

Thing is, when the car is at opertating temp and warmed up. The clack has gone, but there is still a little soft chatter. It kind of pulses every ever second or so, kind of loud then quiet, loud then quiet. I know a sticky lifter would cause clacking when cold. But would a totally dead lifter cause the engine to chatter like this when warm.

I'm pretty sure it's nothing like a rod bearing/big end grinding, as I'm seeing good oil pressure all times, and it's not like the usual thump of a big end.

Thanks in advance

[944bucky]

Not to worry, the S has valve/piston interference. So if you car is running, your valve is not sticking that bad. I'm sure if the valve was stuck it would be bent sideways and you motor would not run. The valvetrain of my S clatters a bit too, but if keep the oil topped off the noise is minimized.

[Razorback1980]

A noisey lifter may or may not still make the noise after warm up. If it is really gone, it will still do it to some degree after warm up....really all depends on the condition of the lifter. It may be that you are hearing something else ticking after warm up as well. Things like fuel injectors always tick and that is quite normal. If you are sure of your diagnosis on noisey lifters, pull the cam tower and replace the noisey ones. You may want to do a compression check when cold and one when warm to see if you can tell a difference in compression and maybe identify which cylinders for sure...unless you already know for sure.

[ae1969]

If the engine has never been torn apart. You can't imagine how gummy it is.

A quart of ATF in the oil may help clear it up.

... and if it doesnt......... I guess you will be replacing them.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

What ae said. . .

At your next oil change, try draining one quart of oil and replacing with a quart of ATF. Then run the engine (idle/low RPM) for about 30 minutes. When I did it I swear my oil filter weighed about 10 pounds from all the crap lodged inside it and all manner of sludgy crap came out of the oil pan when I drained the oil. I since have done a few oil changes (did this procedure again a couple of times) and it's finally more-or-less sludge-free - nothing I wouldn't expect from a 3,000-5,000 mile oil.

If you think you have a sticky or gummed-up lifter, pour some ATF into a container or jar and plop the lifter in there and let it soak for a day or two. That should un-stick it. Or you could always get solid lifters if you want to rev it up to 7,000 RPM all the time and pay about $1,000. . . ya' never know. . .

[Vic Rattlehead]

Thanks for the advice folks.

I'm pretty sure that one or two of the lifters are dead, and its not the injectors I'm hearing. (it's like a clack, then a chatter when warm and not the click that the injectors make.)

I used some wynns engine flush and then put a new filter and oil in. I also added some wynns valve lifter treatment. Then on the advice of my uncle and porsche, changed the oil again from a 20/50 to mobil 1 0/40. As my uncle said 20/50 is too heavy for hydraulic lifters. Again added some vavlve lifter treatment and it's still the same. Only takes longer to quiet down.

I've read about the ATF trick, and am going to do another oil and filter change for the winter, so I may try that before I book it into a specialist to take a look at it.

[Zero10]

If your uncle says 20W50 is too heavy for hydraulic lifters then I am concerned....
20W50 is perfectly acceptable for these engines.
0W40 might be on the thin side. Keep a close eye on your oil pressure, especially at hot idle.

ATF works very well. It has better lubricating properties than many engine flushes, and usually has at least as powerful of a detergent package.

[Vic Rattlehead]

Yeah, I wasn't too sure about his advice about the oil. His reasoning was that its too heavy especially when cold to fill the lifters efficiently. With the 0/40, oil pressure has been acceptable even in the hottest july we've had. It's never been below 2 bar at hot idle. I'm gonna give the ATF trick a whirl then fill up on a 20/50 again. Now to decide... Fully synthetic or mineral based

[krahm]

I don't think you need this reinforcement because it sounds like you know the routine, but I had the same symptoms on my 16V. I decided to "just go ahead and replace the bad lifter" this summer while I did a few other major jobs. What a PITA. Yes the lifter was definitely shot (it collapsed when I squeezed it between fore-finger and thumb). Now no clacking. The ATF trick could help, but if not, as I'm sure you're aware, it's not going to be a cheap job if you're paying to have it done. Getting the cams off and back on again, with all the accompanying parts and procedures, is pretty time consuming.

Also, I'm with Zero10 on the oil question. If the manual recommends 20W50, which it does, then it should really pose no problems.

[Razorback1980]

The theory is this....if you have thick oil and the weather is cold, then it takes longer to reach the bearing surfaces when first started. Ever notice how slow a starter turns the engine over during cold weather? Due mostly to thick lubrication. Put a cup of oil in the freezer sometime and elevate the temperature of another to 180 degrees. Then try to empty the cups and it's easy to see which one circulates through your engine faster. After the car is warm, then it's not as much of an issue. 20W 50 lubricates better at warmer temperatures...so it's a tradeoff. The protection you are looking for depends on the climate you are in and what type driving you do. Starting an engine produces more wear to bearings and rings than running 100 miles at normal operating temperatures. During startup, it's definitely an issue and 10W 40 will reduce bearing wear during startup and make the bearings and rings last longer. In cold months I use 10W40 to protect rings and bearings and in the summer switch to 20W 50. Of course if you store your car in the winter, then there is no reason to switch.

[Vic Rattlehead]

Razor. Yeah I dick clock the slow turning last winter whilst it had a thicker oil in. Although I've done things backwards by going to a thinner oil for the hot months. Fortunatly it doesn't seem to have done any damage. Like I say allways had good or within spec oil or pressure. I was thinking 10/40 or 15/40 for winter when I do the next change.

Krahm, how long did it take you to do the job on your 16 valver? I keep contemplating having a go myself, along with my dad and another uncle, who is a mechanic. I've done tear-downs and rplaced rod bearings etc before, but they were on old ohv engines like Spitfires. I take one look at the Porsche lump and bottle it lol. But the price for the lifters themselves don't seem too bad.

[Zero10]

IMO always stick with synthetic oils. They have FAR superior cold flow properties than conventionals.
A 20W50 synthetic will flow better at cold temperatures than a 10W30 or even a 5W30 conventional (READ: NOT crank easier, but flow better).

[Razorback1980]

You are right....running 10W40 will not damage your motor. The oil will just run off the parts faster than with 20W50. I always run synthetic in mine but that's because Castroil sponsors my race car and I get it free. If you change your oil often, either will be fine although synthetic protects better at higher temperatures and does flow somewhat better at colder ones. In Texas we don't worry about cold temps...only the hot ones. The biggest difference is the additives they put in synthetics to protect longer without lubrication breakdowns.

Try the ATF and go from there...if it still ticks, you'll have to change lifters. It's not as difficult as it seems. The worst is getting the timing and balance belt back on properly and tensioned.