To Headgasket or Not to Headgasket?

[ColoradoSteve]

Here's what's happening. When the car is cold , it starts right up and there is some white smoke and water ( coolant?) dripping out the tailpipe, from condensation. Not a lot of either and after the car warms up the smoke is gone. I'm losing a small amount of coolant too, but it's barely noticeable. The other thing is the car wants to run hot, especially at idle and when I push the motor climbing hills. As long as I back off and when I'm going downhill, the temp goes back to normal. My question is this:Should I wait until the problem worsens, will the gasket come apart in a big way while I'm out on the road? What happens then, just overheating... or worse? I would like to make my annual trip to Tucson at Thanksgiving , postpone this job until the snow flies and the car is garaged. So probably another 2 or 3k before I would do it. What do the experts think?

[ERAU944]

are you sure you're losing coolant in the tailpipe? the oil cooler seals are a common problem. what speeds are we talking about going up hills, in what gears?

check for milkshake in the oil. if you don't see a white cloud coming out of the exhaust on startup, i doubt the head gasket is leaking there.

it's also normal for the temp needle to climb most of the way to the solid yellow sitting at idle. the stock thermostat and fan swith allow this, and it's normal. it is NOT normal for the needle to enter the red though. generally, you don't even need a radiator fan if you're moving faster than 25 mph or so, and the thermostat is working. this also assumes a good water pump. if your water pump is leaking into your belt cover, it could account for: 1) overheating due to poor water pump operation 2) coolant loss.

there are plenty of possibilities

[bud9344]

Tell you the truth, it is going to get worst. But think this way You don't want to happen when you really needed the car.
I am working on an 87 944S right now which started with changing all hoses in the engine bay and timing belt, belt cover and roller and find out the water pump leaking. End up replacing the water pump and when all is done the head gasket it leaking fill # 1 piston with A/F. Now I am doing the Head Gasket as well.
Actually from the day I got the car I have been having some problem with the car loosing coolant because off hoses busted one by one. And I have no idea how many time the PO fill the coolant because off small leak, it must be that the head gasket finally take the toll.
Luckily we have some spare cars that we drive in case off down time.
Good Luck


------------------------
Bud

87 930 Black
86 951 Black
86 944 N/A part car
87 944S White
83 944 N/A Black
83 944 N/A White Auto

[John_AZ]

Originally Posted by ColoradoSteve

Here's what's happening. When the car is cold , it starts right up and there is some white smoke and water ( coolant?) dripping out the tailpipe, from condensation. Not a lot of either and after the car warms up the smoke is gone. I'm losing a small amount of coolant too, but it's barely noticeable. The other thing is the car wants to run hot, especially at idle and when I push the motor climbing hills. As long as I back off and when I'm going downhill, the temp goes back to normal. My question is this:Should I wait until the problem worsens, will the gasket come apart in a big way while I'm out on the road? What happens then, just overheating... or worse? I would like to make my annual trip to Tucson at Thanksgiving , postpone this job until the snow flies and the car is garaged. So probably another 2 or 3k before I would do it. What do the experts think?

What do the experts think?
I am more modest than most

Some of what you see may be condensation from the John Denver Colorado High.
I let a couple of months go when I noticed the same symptoms. I did many tests and watched the coolant level.

A leak down test would be your friend and give you a real accurate idea of how bad the gasket has deteriorated.

Check the oil level often. If the head gasket is real bad, the coolant will mix with oil.

The overheating issue at idle and pushing it uphill may be your first concern expecially on returning to CO from an elevation of 1100 feet in Tucson.
I have no expert knowledge on this but it may be caused by the head heating more with coolant leaking in the combustion chamber. Check to see if your plugs are getting steam cleaned by the antifreeze.

The head job is a 10 day process. Remove--take to machine shop--replace. May be less time if machine shop is quicker.

GL
John_AZ
1988 924S + 1987 924S DD

[Schumi]

I second doing a leakdown test. I had trouble with coolant in the oil and I removed the head to find a head gasket in good condition.

[rsrmike]

I second the spark plug idea... usually a good tell-tale

Also do a proper leakdown test, w/ radiator cap removed, listen for any bubbling, gurgling in the expansion tank. If not, take the leakdown tester out of the equation and put the airline straight to the hose going into the cylinder. MAKE SURE the engine is at TDC for that cylinder and take the car out of gear just in case. 150 psi WILL make the car run over your foot if it's just past TDC in first gear... (don't ask me how I know this)

[ERAU944]

so, everyone's offering head gasket advice, rather than making sure that's actually the issue?

personally, i'd like a bit more info regarding what was described before i made that call. seems like it would be mighty wasteful to jump into the head gasket replacement when all that might be needed are oil cooler seals...

[rsrmike]

Originally Posted by ERAU944

so, everyone's offering head gasket advice, rather than making sure that's actually the issue?

personally, i'd like a bit more info regarding what was described before i made that call. seems like it would be mighty wasteful to jump into the head gasket replacement when all that might be needed are oil cooler seals...

Huh? He didn't say anything about coolant and oil mixing.

I thought he got some good advice.

Of course, it would be easier to make sure the cooling system is bled out properly, forgot to mention that one.

[Zero10]

Losing coolant - Likely the little hose going from the rail by the exhaust headers to the water pump area, or the heater hoses at the back of the engine. These will cause the least find-able leaks since they leak onto hot parts and the coolant will evaporate before hitting the ground or anything else. Next likely candidates (though these usually show on the ground) are the rad hoses and/or the crimps on the end tanks of the rad.

some white smoke at startup - perfectly normal, especially at a higher altitude, water from the tail pipe, also normal. You will notice a VERY strong coolant smell from the exhaust if you are burning antifreeze.

overheating when going uphill - just how hot does it get, and can you be certain that your temp gauge is accurate? Temp gauges on 944's will almost always read high due to corrosion on the grounding points. Same reason the volt meter almost always reads low.


I don't see anything pointing at head gasket just yet. Pull the plugs, check for any being steam cleaned (and if it is a head gasket leak, it will either be soaked with coolant or completely clean), and if in doubt, perform a leakdown test and/or pressure test the cooling system.

If you have no oil in the coolant or coolant in the oil, no point chasing after the oil cooler seals. Everything fails at one time or another, so the sooner you replace something the sooner it will fail, don't fix what isn't broke, and I can't count how many heads I've seen people pull for no good reason.

[ERAU944]

the reason i said that is, he didn't mention ruling out the coolant/oil mix. my buddy noticed he was losing coolant and did a head gasket, only to later find the coolant was disappearing into the oil. i'm saying do a thorough check to make sure you get the proper culprit before tearing into everything.

i'd hesitate to give advice after hearing such little info especially given the multitude of things it *could* be, and ESPECIALLY after hearing he's losing almost negligible amounts of coolant - head gaskets tend to fail in a big way... there are extreme temps and pressures involved.

[rsrmike]

Good point about checking the oil, Mike
I thought he mentioned coolant dripping from the tailpipe, but now I see it's not clear whether it is condesation or antifreeze.

Granted it would suck to pull the head for no reason, but what's wrong with checking plugs or doing a leakdown? Even w/o any problems?

[ERAU944]

oh, nothing at all wrong with checking! i'd just like to hear a bit more about the symptoms from the OP... it sounds like there may not even be an issue at all. heck, my 944 'loses' small amounts of coolant from time to time, i think it may not be bled fully even though i spent tons of time bleeding it...

[ColoradoSteve]

Well, thanks for the replies,all. I just ran the car at idle for about 30 minutes and the temp never got past the 3/4 mark! Then I revved it up a couple of times and the temp dropped down to the 1/2 mark. No milkshake in the oil, the oil is as clean as when I changed it 2k ago. Not really losing any oil either, except for a few minor drips . I do tend to drive the car fast on these mountain roads , 70mph to over 100mph on the straight stretches. The tach can be holding between 5 and 6 , especially when I'm passing. I'm not a reckless driver, it's just that this car doesn't know it's too old for this kind of behavior! Anyway, maybe it's normal for the car to run hot ( between 3/4 and yellow)when it's being driven this way. The car only has 140k on it but I just assumed since it's 25 the gaskets will be deteriorating( replaced the cam tower gaskets and they were wasted). As soon as it cools off a little, I'll pull a couple of plugs to see how they look.
It's possible, as was mentioned above, that the temp gauge is not accurate. The fuel gauge was doing some weird things recently and I did clean the contacts. That fixed it. How do I perform a leakdown test? There's nowhere to take it to nearby so I've got to do it myself, if possible.

[rsrmike]

Sounds like Erau may be right about a non-existent issue. That would be ideal!!

If you don't smell a strong anifreeze smell out the exhaust like others have mentioned, it's probably condensation.

Also, forgot to mention if you did have coolant leaking into a cylinder, that cylinder should misfire for at least several seconds when cold until it pumped all the coolant out and cleaned off the plug.

If you've never done a leakdown test, I would punt for now. You need a cylinder leakage tester and a good supply of compressed air...
Plus it's a PITA on 944's, at least on cyls 2-3 where there is no TDC mark on the crankpulley or flywheel,

Most stock NA 944's have more trouble with corrosion on the cylinder head causing the gasket to fail versus just a gasket failure, provided it hasn't been hot.

If they do get hot, however, the oil cooler seals usually go before the headgasket in my experience...

Good luck, pray you don't scoop up a deer at 100 mph

[ColoradoSteve]

Here's the plug out of #1 cylinder, looks OK I think.
I guess for now I'm going to assume that I don't have a gasket problem I'll check out the oil cooler seals, that might be it.Thanks everyone, you guys are invaluable to us ignorant ones!By the way,rsmike, I only drive that fast when I'm in the open and can see a half mile ahead. Had a collision ( in my truck ) with an elk about a year ago. I'm still shaking from that one.

[rsrmike]

ouch!! I didn't think about Elk! I was just barbing you a little... No worries

[John_AZ]

How do plugs 2,3,4 look?

John_AZ

[nynor]

Originally Posted by ColoradoSteve

Well, thanks for the replies,all. I just ran the car at idle for about 30 minutes and the temp never got past the 3/4 mark! Then I revved it up a couple of times and the temp dropped down to the 1/2 mark. No milkshake in the oil, the oil is as clean as when I changed it 2k ago. Not really losing any oil either, except for a few minor drips . I do tend to drive the car fast on these mountain roads , 70mph to over 100mph on the straight stretches. The tach can be holding between 5 and 6 , especially when I'm passing. I'm not a reckless driver, it's just that this car doesn't know it's too old for this kind of behavior! Anyway, maybe it's normal for the car to run hot ( between 3/4 and yellow)when it's being driven this way. The car only has 140k on it but I just assumed since it's 25 the gaskets will be deteriorating( replaced the cam tower gaskets and they were wasted). As soon as it cools off a little, I'll pull a couple of plugs to see how they look.
It's possible, as was mentioned above, that the temp gauge is not accurate. The fuel gauge was doing some weird things recently and I did clean the contacts. That fixed it. How do I perform a leakdown test? There's nowhere to take it to nearby so I've got to do it myself, if possible.

head gasket. the failure is causing the coolant at the head to get hot and revving it then circulates that hot coolant out. i had the same problem.

[Zero10]

You're running a little rich on #1, but def no head gasket problem on that cylinder.

If the engine is getting warm on occasion there are a number of things that can cause it. Sometimes thermostats will stick part-way open and can restrict coolant flow, it could be some blockages in the radiator, could be an inaccurate temperature gauge. Too many "could be's". Show the other 3 plugs, if they all look the same that is the end of the head gasket line of questioning since it is fine. Next thing to do is borrow an infra-red thermometer, and check the actual temp of the engine block / head (right where the temp sensor is), as well as upper/lower rad hoses and a few spots on the radiator. This should help fill in where the problem is.

[ColoradoSteve]

I ran the motor again this morning and pulled the plugs again. They all look the same , no sign of moisture or being steam cleaned which I guess they would be if the headgasket was leaking. No misfire on startup, either.Also, I'm thinking that there would be a lot of white smoke , not just a vapor cloud?I replaced the radiator and thermostat last summer so I don't think there's a problem there. Pretty sure the waterpump is OK , don't know how old it is, but it is definitely not the original.Maybe there's still some air in the circulation creating a hot spot in the head, I don't have a bleed valve like they show in the manual, so I don't think the system was bled properly. Maybe I should replace the temp sensor, that might be worth a try. Thanks again to everyone for the input!