my time is worth quite a bit to me - based purely on hourly rates, it is definitely far cheaper for me to pay a shop than it is to do it myself (and i used to own a shop) - the only problem with the 968 is that i can't find a good shop - so, i not only end up doing a lot of that myself, but i also end up designing performance parts for it, simply because they don't exist

i am WAY too old for video games, not that i ever understood the attraction when i was young enough for them - i have always opted to do whatever it was for real, and not pretend

tv is pretty much a waste any more - not much on - i don't do reality tv, and i'm not 16, so i find most of the shows are just too pedestrian for my tastes - the good ones keep getting cancelled, so i have pretty much stopped investing myself in them

so, in my spare time, i'll travel, play a sport, go to the track, whatever, but not sit around on the couch wasting time - as i have gotten older, i have come to realize how precious time is, and how limited the quantity - i try to maximize every hour - that isn't to say i don't like to just lie back from time to time - i just tend to make it a focused and deliberate activity, and do it in a pleasant surrounding with a really good bottle of wine

as a result, whenever i can, i do things once, and i do them right - that way i don't have to go back and do them again - i also don't get into things i can't afford to do right - i've never been one to settle, and i'd rather go without than have something less than what i want

did that make sense?

i totally understand. but i think it's still up to the person to decided whether or not their time is worth it and not use a blanket statement.

i for one enjoy wrenching with the car. since my day job is all typing on a computer, when i come home i enjoy getting my hands greasy and dirty making a metal machine work. it's totally a side hobby for me.

i get that - i have no issue with that - i also enjoy working on mine some of the time - modifications and such have always been fun - repair, not so much

however, it is not a blanket statement as much as a reality that NO time is free - it has value at some level, even if it's the wife's, and this needs to be factored in - even if you are unemployed, doing your own wrenching means taking time away from finding a job - that has a very real value in dollars, as it delays when you start making money again, and can be easily calculated in dollars lost

regardless of whether you do it yourself or not, but a pig in a poke used engine or not, the project costs a LOT more than a belt change, is usually far more involved than anybody thinks it is when they get into it, and almost never turns out like they hoped

all i am suggesting is that it be considered carefully, and a lot of homework done before diving in

I put a ford 4.6 liter DOHC engine into mine at an out of pocket expense of about $2400. It included a lot of time and effort but I am the only one who has done one of these engines and I had to figure it out on my own. It took me 5 months from start to finish and you may say that is a lot but that was mostly evenings only and 2 months of it I was away at school.

I personally think my conversion came out pretty nicely. I wouldnt worry about what people say about the balance because aparently they dont really know what they are talking about. my car was balanced 51% to the front with my v-8 in it with no driver and 50.4% to the front with me in it. That is with full interior.

As for why people sell them... I am going to guess it is similar to the reason that anyone sells any 944.... because they decided they didnt want it anymore. There is probably a larger percentage of ones without v-8's sold than with v-8's. I personally see it as giving the car what it should have had in the begining. Some reliability and low maintenance along with about double the horsepower.

Someone also said something about preserving the dignity of these cars but they dont seem to mind that about everyone and his brother is parting them out. tearing apart perfectly good cars. It seems to me that people dont really care about the dignity of these so you arent really hurting anything buy helping out the car.

As far as the time aspect goes... everyone needs a hobby and if your hobby is working on cars then its really a perfect project for you. I consider it relaxing time... it takes the place of sitting around on the couch or something.

If you have any questions about it and want to hear some more about it send me a PM otherwise the purists will just keep shooting it down.

Show us some pictures please. No pics didn't happen. :D

I seriously looked into it a couple years ago and flew out to Vegas to check them out etc. I had just been ripped off on a supercharger set-up by a fellow board member to the tune of $4000 that was never recovered and decided to try a different approach. For $18K they were going to pick up my car after delivering one to Ohio, stick in a low mileage LS1, and I was going to fly out and drive it back. The project died when we started talking A/C and power brake delete. In addition my series 1 suspension and torque tube were suspect as far as 350 HP plus. I decided to just do headers, rebuilt lower end, MAF, and all the goodies on the top end. We managed to get a little south of 150 RWHP from the stock 127 and with the new suspension set up I am very pleased with the results. It really adds up with these cars when you do something right. I have dumped around $15K into mine to get it where it is (plus the car) and still get excited every time I take it out. It is more fun than my C4 or our M3 in a lot of ways. The AMG however is still king of the garage.

Steve

I just can't visualize it costing 15K. I guess maybe if you just drop it off at a shop and say, "I'll have a V8"
I can't see rationalizing doing it related to costs of t-belts, waterpump,etc. Thats maybe a few hundred bucks if you do it yourself. If it's out of your skill level, don't even think about a conversion car. Even if you have the install done professionally, there will always be gremlins to figure out.

I'm kickin the idea around, myself. If all the planets align and I find a super cheap, straight body 944 with a blown engine, I have an LT1 ready to rebuild. Also have thought about a twin turbo V6 from a 300zx, but would be alot more fabricating.
My biggest spoiler is Smog laws here in California. I've read that it's possible to make it street legal, but most likely I'd just build a track car.

if you drop it off, to anybody who knows what they are doing, you are looking at a whole lot more than $15k

it's not the engine that is the expensive part - that is actually pretty cheap, even if you buy new - most of the cost is the frame and chassis work, transaxle upgrades, suspension upgrades, brake upgrades, and such - if you don't do these, you're just plain nuts - heck, they need to be done regardless of the engine, just to drive fast - the stock stuff is wimpy

it all adds up in a hurry - i've got $40k in mods to the 968 just to hand the extra 50hp i have now, and it started with bigger everything than the 944 - to do a V8, i would have to do a LOT more

i've done probably 20 V8 conversions, in all types of cars (including a 944) - the engine was always the least of the issues, and usually only about 25% of the cost

like i said, i did the "rubber band and bubble gum" method when i was a kid too - i ignored those who had more experience - i learned the hard way that it is a bad idea - way too many wrecked or broken cars as a result

in regards to doing it here in california, if you are in a zip code that requires emissions testing, you have to put in an engine that is newer than the car, and include all of the emissions equipment that came on the engine - you have to go through BAR to get it certified too - however, if you live in one of the zip codes that is exempt, you don't have to do anything

that may change soon, requiring testing everywhere

If you want more professional advices , I suggest you should contact
Renegadehybrids.com. They are in business for long time like 25 years or
more.

It seems that if one buys all the kits from them and knows how to do it, it
should not be a problem as long as it does not go hard on your wallet.

I always want LS1 for my 1983 944. I am tired of those soup up Honda or
Acura integra want to race me almost every time.
On the suspension part, you will need at least 220lbs spring and good shocks
like bilstein, kyb.

they are probably the biggest - there have been problems with their kits in the past - i don't know if they solved them or not - i was extremely disappointed with the example they brought tothe show - it was very incomplete, though they said it was done - yes, the engine was in there - yes the car ran - but there were a lot of details left unfinished or poorly done - this was about 3 or 4 years ago - maybe they've gotten better

springs would probably need to be at least 300 and closer to 400 lbs - 220 is pretty soft - remember that after adding all the cooling stuff, and everything else needed that is bigger and heavier, adding about 100 lbs to the front end, plus the added torque of the engine that will compress the suspension under load, you need a stiffer spring - you will also need to uprate the rear spring rate to compensate

this is where i said it starts to add up - this is the entrance to the slippery slope

i still think it's a great idea (assuming you can figure out gearing that works with the V8, which is what is stopping me from doing it) - just take the time and think out every detail before diving in - pick renegade's brain - there is actually a site for other V8 swaps too that would probably be a good place to start

Can somebody please post the basic weight of a 944 n/a engine?

I toy around with the idea of doing some sort of V_ conversion, but getting significantly above the 220hp of the stock 951 w/out breaking the bank is tough one.

close enough?
 

there is a 928S LT1 Renegade conversion on ebay now.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Porsche-928-Euro-928S-1986-Porsche-928S-with-Chevy-LT-1_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a543Q7c66Q3a2Q7c 65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318Q7c301Q3a0Q7c293Q3a6Q 7c294Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem180 314337620QQitemZ180314337620QQptZUSQ5fCarsQ5fTruck s

It is not a 944, but if you want to go that way...

18K invested, selling for 11K or so. Simple math indicates that several thousand dollars seems to have vanished into thin air. Therefore we can all conclude that although it has an American V8, It is still a Porsche.

I was under the impression that a V8 would screw with the weight distribution on the front. If I was mistaken, I apologize. I was going to use this example to ridicule the economics of a V8 conversion....Then I took a look at the economics of my Porsche and decided to have a nice big cup of shut the heck up.

(yes, it is the same joke twice, take your pick)

IF you were to want a V8 Porsche, why not get a 928? (OK, there are Lots of good reasons NOT to)
IF you want a V8 converted Porsche, you could look about and get someone's abandoned or completed project. Let them take the financial bath, and pick up the pieces...what could possibly go wrong?

People dont need to use the renegades kit to do the swap. You keep saying that renegades kit is unrefined but if someone is doing it themselves and has the right skills they can change it however they want. Renegade is just trying to make a bolt together kit that anyone can build.

I am not sure what cooling stuff you are talking about adding. I am using the stock radiator and fans and havent had any problems with my car overheating.

Why does the front suspension compress under load??? if anything the front decompresses. I agree higher rate springs should be used on any 944 but it is not because a v-8 is put in. It is not like the things are dragging their belly. They sit at stock height with the v-8.

I agree that the gearing is not ideal for the v-8. what I did was put the N/A fifth into the turbo gearbox. That helps out a lot on the upper end of things. The other gears just give you some serious giddy up. If you want you can just skip gears for everyday driving habbits.

I am not real sure why you think a 50hp gain makes you need 40k in upgrades. What do you do with your car?

It sounds to me like you just have a lot of money to burn. You said when you got your two cars with less than 25,000 miles on them you went through them and replaced a lot of parts with new. They are all practically new anyway. Why did they need to be replaced.

I personally am upgrading my brakes since I have an 83 car but unless you are doing tracking the brakes are sufficient. For a street car you really arent going to drive that v-8 any differently than your 4 cylinder except you will accelerate faster. it doesnt mean you will drive any faster or need to slow down any faster. There are still speed limits unfortunately.

I dont know what transmission and chassis upgrades you think are necessary either. I chose to do the 5th swap. I drove it for a while without it and it isnt required. As far as chassis modifications. I just have a couple more holes in the firewall for a few things. aside from that there is nothing about the chassis changed.

I am not trying to offend you here but I dont think you know as much as you are leading people to believe on this subject. Without having done one you cant fully understand what is involved.

the stock 944 engine is 366lbs dry, but complete

the suspension compresses on the torque side, and will also compress more under braking, due to the increased weight

the stock radiator for a 944 will NOT be big enough for an LS1 - maybe it is for the smaller engine you have (and i would have to see that to believe it, as it's too small for even the 968 engine), but not to maintain temps under load on a bigger one

as for the gearbox, all i can say is you must really granny that thing around - even the torque of a 968 engine rips those boxes apart in a hurry - there are plenty of guys with busted boxes to validate that - no way they hold up to a V8

as for my car, i drive it HARD - i sit between 5 and 7k regularly - the stock suspension is soggy, the chassis is soft, and the brakes are marginal - for street driving, it's probably decent, but nowhere near up to the task of really driving - i've already bent or broken quite a few things due to the level of driving, and the increased power - a good amount of bracing was added - much better now

age is as much of an enemy as mileage - they were not practically new - they were over 10 years old - this is a common misconception - every single hose, belt, and bushing needed to be replaced - they do in 100% of these cars if they are still on original stuff

the chassis is so soft, that i can measure over 1/4" of compression in the lower mounts under load - that is completely unacceptable - the car twists so much, that a V8 i did in one put a wheel in the air and left it there the first time we lit the tires - it took a lot of work to get it to stay put - sub-frame connectors, and diagonal cross bracing were needed

i've been doing this kind of thing for 30 years, with all kinds of cars, both on the street and on the track - until you actually go out and press one of these, you may not see the problems involved - if you only take it to the grocery store, who cares? if you want to come out and play, even on one of our fun runs, i can show you how the car is not up to the job - even the guys with stock 968s have found out how lacking their cars are in suspension, braking, and chassis, and they have a lot more upgraded stuff than on a 944

i would be happy to demonstrate the issues these cars have when pressed - we do a couple of track days every year - bring the car out

that isn't to say that a 944 can't be a lot of fun to drive, or that they aren't a good car - it just means that once you graduate to a different level of driving, more work needs to be done to the car

perhaps my standards are just higher too - it's not that i have money to burn - but, i demand ferrari quality and performance - i demand that the car be immaculate and perfect - i have 4 popped stitches in my top - i am replacing it - i have a couple dozen or so small chips in the paint - i am stripping the car down to the factory prep again, and repainting it, just as i did when i first got the car, even though it had just won a concours - when the engine gets to a 5% drop in compression, i am ripping it down - when the interior stops smelling new, i will change it

i am very likely speaking to the wrong audience here, but this is the way i do things - i bring the cars up to new condition, and keep it there - i don't want an old car - i will continue to rework things to maintain that

remember that i am old and have already gone past my hooptie high school car days - i get that everybody has to start somewhere, and i did too - i have been fortunate, and over the years have learned a lot about the right and wrong ways of doing things, and learned to appreciate and maintain those things i have

we all have our own sets of priorities and standards - none of them are wrong

musing
 

Hey Flash: I get what you are saying about Porsche shops in the OC area, I could not for the life of me find anybody to do the work when I was busy with the job and had no time for it. You mentioned that you used to run a shop. Why not open one up in the area? Some off the path location with a few bays and a mechanic to give your car the coveted "shop owner" priority. Parts supplied by our sponsor, a couple of lifts, some pars cars out back, I bet you could have your 968 (or any other car) brought or kept up to your standards.None of us have the bucks to front the whole thing, however A few like minded Porsche owners and...a Co-op Porsche Garage! Hec, in the long run it would be cheaper than paying a shop. Ah well, just musing. Probably a dumb idea.

Back to topic: The amount of work that you would have to put in is pretty daunting, but not impossible. It is not my idea of a good time and use of money. However...This IS America, and if you want to go ahead and Get er done, I humbly suggest that you consider the options long and hard. As the 7 habits book says...Begin with the end in mind. What is the desired outcome and how are we going to get there? If a V8 porsche is what you really want...OK....However, be careful what you wish, for wishes may come true and you just might be sitting in one someday. As Spock said, "the wanting may be better than the having" (Ok that is loosely paraphrased at best, I am not a trekkie.) There will come a time in any big project where you have to ask "Is this trip really necessary?" As long as you really want to do it and commit the resources it, It can be done. They put a man on the moon for crying out loud!

flash968

I want first "dibs" on all the parts you dream not acceptable for your cars.. . Couple of chips... Hmmmm I need to figure a way to take the paint job off your car and put it on mine Lol.

I hope to some day be in your position. I envy you. I have 20 years till I retire (I am in the middle of the "I have kids" part of life.. .. 4 of them.. . . I must be nuts)

lol - don't think for a minute that i don't thank my lucky stars every day, or that it didn't take a lot of work over decades

i keep going back and forth on this one, and likely i'll end up just buying a ferrari - i'm just stuck between the 355 and the 360 - there are things i like about each, and would rather have of one on the other

ah well - another dream for another day

Decisions...Decisions....
 

A 355 or a 360........Decisions...Decisions.......That IS a hard call. :D

I Still like the 308. Something about the way it all looks, sounds and feels. Classic.:cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool:

Then can I have your tires when you're done with them?




But, seriously, I know how that is. I can only afford to be that way about the little stuff, like oil leaks. Everything else just has to wait until the snot's beat out of it before I can do anything about it. I would so love to tear my engine down and redo it!