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-   -   Renegade V8 Hybird conversion (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?t=447003)

flash968 12-20-2008 08:54 AM

funny you should mention tires - i am just about to take them off and replace them - i never let them get down to the wear bars, and i never really liked the S0-3s anyway - great traction, decent on the track, but noisy and they tramline

been contemplating pulling the HREs too and swapping them out for something lighter - just haven't found the wheel i like - that's why i still have the S0-3s - with an 18 i need a very stiff side wall or i will bash a rim - trying to find a 17 i like better - no luck yet

i may have to design a camber kit instead to reduce negative camber in the rear - with my suspension and chassis work i no longer need the negative camber anyway

944Spec_bound 12-20-2008 11:44 AM

I really think people should try to be more open minded when someone posts a relevent question. I know most are trying to be helpful, but comments saying things like we're doing the "rubber band and bubble gum method", just because someone would choose not to do a full body off chassis upgrade, sounds judgemental to me. If that's your philosophy, cool. I try not to judge. If someone wants to build a hypermileage car or put a diesel in it, even though I'm not into it, I can respect that.
I just don't get why people have no problem with someone spending 10-15K on just aftermarket bolt-on parts having only gained a little HP and handling over the stock $2000 car, but are ready to warn people off of trying something different.

One of the most fun cars I ever had was a 1978 Mustang II, that I got for $200, replaced the 4 cyl and trans with a V8 out of a 67 Mustang. That was in a car that was strictly designed for economy, not nearly as good a palette as a 944. The car was not perfect, but it was a safe toy car that I beat the hell out of for 3 years and could walk away from with no regrets. (20 years later, I'm still bummed that it was stolen).

I think alot of us have a similar outlook on 944's today. They're inexpensive with tons of potential. With so many 944's being parted out and sent to scrap pile, what's wrong with playing around with different ideas about keeping one on the street? I wonder if AC purists warned Carrol Shelby against putting a V8 powertrain in a European 4cyl car when he built the Cobra?

flash968 12-20-2008 02:38 PM

judgmental sounding or not, there is a safe and correct way to build a car, and there is the jethro way to build a car - it is what it is - over the 3 decades of building cars, i've seen them all, and dealt with just about every kind of guy who wants to do all sorts of things - no worries - it has been an adventure, and a great learning experience - but, i always get the most resistance to common sense from those who either can't afford to do it right, or those who are too young or inexperienced to know what is right

unfortunately, everyone tends to want to hear that it is cheap or easy - then they find out the hard way that it wasn't - by that time though, the damage is already done, and the path back is longer and more expensive

no, AC did not want to do what shelby did - that project got a LOT of resistance - shelby will be the first to tell you about it - by the way, that car is a MESS to drive - i've driven a few - the kits are much better, for many of the same reasons i am talking about (of course i would still love to have one)

again, i have no issue with an individual doing whatever they want - i have done some odd things too - i've stuffed V8s into fiats and MGBs - however, i also did the rest of the work to make the car safe and solid - i also did not recommend it to anyone else - telling someone to just stuff it in there without also recommending the correct ancillary work is wrong, dangerous, and unfair - it is exactly why such conversions get a bad rap

all i am suggesting is to do the homework first - do the math - work out the stress loads - drive some of these cars - then determine what your needs and priorities are - i've driven a couple of the V8 944s, and they were a mess - soggy stock chassis, inadequate brakes, ran hot, and felt like a buick under torque shift - those guys thought they had a tight car - then i took them for a spin in a tight car - let's just say they weren't very happy with their cars when they left

i'm not saying it can't be done - i know it can - i'm not saying that everybody needs or wants it one way or another, or that my way is the only way - heck, if that were the case, there wouldn't be a huge number of staunch supporters of bone stock 356s out there - obviously there is an audience for even a horrible driving car (by today's standards), even though they can be improved - i am saying that if you want the car to drive at least as well as a run of the mill modern BMW, you need to spend money

as for the "bolt on mods" and their effects, no, the power increase was not huge - yes, it pulled a full 1/2 second off my 0-60 times, and resulted in better overall driving and access to the power it does have, but it was not as dramatic as dropping in a V8 or even supercharging or turbocharging would be - however, that was not the point of my project - i have always said that it was not the wiset thing, nor the most cost effective, and i have never recommended that anyone else go there

however, the suspension and chassis mods are a different story - it is an entirely different car now - the handling is so far past what porsche did, that it feels like a new much more expensive car - however, i have also not recommended that anyone else go there, and it was just something i wanted to do

these are my personal preferences and my own projects - that is where my problem with all of this lies - it is not appropriate to recommend that somebody do something that is clearly not a good design, or is not safe - if they choose to do that on their own, fine, however realize that in putting advice on a website, if nothing else, you open yourself up to litigation when it goes wrong - we have responsibility to the community to recommend safe and prudent ventures, and to try to help people avoid pitfalls

944Spec_bound 12-20-2008 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flash968 (Post 4371478)
judgmental sounding or not, there is a safe and correct way to build a car, and there is the jethro way to build a car - it is what it is - over the 3 decades of building cars, i've seen them all, and dealt with just about every kind of guy who wants to do all sorts of things - no worries - it has been an adventure, and a great learning experience - but, i always get the most resistance to common sense from those who either can't afford to do it right, or those who are too young or inexperienced to know what is right

unfortunately, everyone tends to want to hear that it is cheap or easy - then they find out the hard way that it wasn't - by that time though, the damage is already done, and the path back is longer and more expensive

no, AC did not want to do what shelby did - that project got a LOT of resistance - shelby will be the first to tell you about it - by the way, that car is a MESS to drive - i've driven a few - the kits are much better, for many of the same reasons i am talking about (of course i would still love to have one)

again, i have no issue with an individual doing whatever they want - i have done some odd things too - i've stuffed V8s into fiats and MGBs - however, i also did the rest of the work to make the car safe and solid - i also did not recommend it to anyone else - telling someone to just stuff it in there without also recommending the correct ancillary work is wrong, dangerous, and unfair - it is exactly why such conversions get a bad rap

all i am suggesting is to do the homework first - do the math - work out the stress loads - drive some of these cars - then determine what your needs and priorities are - i've driven a couple of the V8 944s, and they were a mess - soggy stock chassis, inadequate brakes, ran hot, and felt like a buick under torque shift - those guys thought they had a tight car - then i took them for a spin in a tight car - let's just say they weren't very happy with their cars when they left

i'm not saying it can't be done - i know it can - i'm not saying that everybody needs or wants it one way or another, or that my way is the only way - heck, if that were the case, there wouldn't be a huge number of staunch supporters of bone stock 356s out there - obviously there is an audience for even a horrible driving car (by today's standards), even though they can be improved - i am saying that if you want the car to drive at least as well as a run of the mill modern BMW, you need to spend money

as for the "bolt on mods" and their effects, no, the power increase was not huge - yes, it pulled a full 1/2 second off my 0-60 times, and resulted in better overall driving and access to the power it does have, but it was not as dramatic as dropping in a V8 or even supercharging or turbocharging would be - however, that was not the point of my project - i have always said that it was not the wiset thing, nor the most cost effective, and i have never recommended that anyone else go there

however, the suspension and chassis mods are a different story - it is an entirely different car now - the handling is so far past what porsche did, that it feels like a new much more expensive car - however, i have also not recommended that anyone else go there, and it was just something i wanted to do

these are my personal preferences and my own projects - that is where my problem with all of this lies - it is not appropriate to recommend that somebody do something that is clearly not a good design, or is not safe - if they choose to do that on their own, fine, however realize that in putting advice on a website, if nothing else, you open yourself up to litigation when it goes wrong - we have responsibility to the community to recommend safe and prudent ventures, and to try to help people avoid pitfalls

I apologize if it seemed like I was downing you or anyone for spending money on upgrades, that's totally understandable. I just meant that different routes shouldn't be criticized just because it's not logicical to you. I mean, I'd tell people that jumping out of perfectly good airplane might not be very smart, but skydiving sure looks fun. Example: The illogical Cobra. Even if it's a mess to drive, has no roof, it turned out to be one of the most iconic cars ever made because it's fun.

I'm just saying, this board is a great bank of knowledge. Let's share known issues, and give advice on shortcuts or alternative procedures, known pitfalls, and definitly safety concerns, but let the person make a grown up decision based on that, instead of belittling their ideas.

flash968 12-21-2008 10:46 AM

i couldn't agree more

SolReaver 12-21-2008 08:11 PM

Btw..
 
Just doing some Rennlist lurking... and while we are talking conversions...Apparently there is an Audi 5000 swap. I was not aware of that. Just another possibility to consider in keeping an open mind.


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