Header Coating

[flash968]

technically coating is paint. just ask the coater.

the rules do not specify what kind of paint, or how it is applied, nor do they exclude any kind of paint.

they allow only the outside though.

[vdubr928]

I guess I see what the op is saying but, I was also under the impression that the horsepower gain was noticeable with coated exhaust. I can see rastas points too. It must he tough to balance alot of this. Like allowing turbo valve springs. Questionable to me but if you don't then guys are going to run them anyway and have an advantage. I am also thinking that once you have a car built it might get boaring real fast if there were no mode left to do. I publicly but reasonably stated my opinion that enough is enough. I've got enough work to do to get this car readyand while I know I wont be winning right out if the gate I also will come to the table with competitive gear so that I know where the bar is set and what my realistic goals are for the season. Ie my car is = to his so by he end of the season I would like to be within x of his lap times. I wasn't planning on showing up with a car that has no business trying to compete. Although I know some people go this route and are successful as they learn. I want to come join this party soon. Id hate to get half way one with my build and blam. New rules. New parts. Things coming apart for mods. Bummer.

[944sracer]

I wouldn't get discouraged at all Vdub. the rules evolve all the time at various rates. Just get the motor set (belts,wp,etc) suspension, and the safety and start to DE. then build it as you go. Thats what most people do. The rules are constantly updated and fine tuned and to be honest I think most are about 1-2 years behind the changes anyway.

[Rasta Monsta]

Your friendly and reasonable questions are basically a "slippery slope" argument. . .look it up, it is a logical fallacy.

If you think ceramic coatings are unfair, then lobby the group to repeal header wraps as allowable, if you believe insulated headers are a huge advantage. Frankly, I don't think the HP difference amounts to jack *****.

As to your assertions that your wallet shouldn't impact your on-track performance, you are living in fantasy land. It is auto racing. If the guy next to you can afford fancy blueprinted injectors and you can't, you are at a disadvantage. If the guy next to you can afford fresh shaved RA1s for each race weekend and you can't, you are at a disadvantage. If you insist on "protesting" a cheap mod based on some weird principle, you will miss out on race weekends while we are all out having fun.

New rules, new parts? Hogwash. . .this is a minor proposal to a ten year old ruleset that has had very few changes.

Perhaps a gokart is more your speed?

[vdubr928]

Originally Posted by Rasta Monsta

Your friendly and reasonable questions are basically a "slippery slope" argument. . .look it up, it is a logical fallacy.

If you think ceramic coatings are unfair, then lobby the group to repeal header wraps as allowable, if you believe insulated headers are a huge advantage. Frankly, I don't think the HP difference amounts to jack *****.

As to your assertions that your wallet shouldn't impact your on-track performance, you are living in fantasy land. It is auto racing. If the guy next to you can afford fancy blueprinted injectors and you can't, you are at a disadvantage. If the guy next to you can afford fresh shaved RA1s for each race weekend and you can't, you are at a disadvantage. If you insist on "protesting" a cheap mod based on some weird principle, you will miss out on race weekends while we are all out having fun.

New rules, new parts? Hogwash. . .this is a minor proposal to a ten year old ruleset that has had very few changes.

Perhaps a gokart is more your speed?

You guys race with this guy? He sounds like the guy I used to know running 105 kits in an 80 race. Pretty sure stock injectors are all that's allowed. If you are blueprinting yours that is probably cheating. Besides rasta. I think my argument may be over your head and my ability to see both sides of the argument and comment as such puts me far above your class and maturity level. I don't have to race you. I already won.

Thanks racer. I think ill get started on my engine anyway. Or maybe look for a more elligable builder. What is the advantage with the 88+ motor? Mine is 87. Its just discouraging to be looking at such a long list of parts that I have to buy for an advertised stock class. If I was broke id go race r/c. If rasta was rich he wouldnt be acting like a child (or racing 944's) so I guess it may be easier to approve of rule changes when I already have a good platform. Ill go back to the research table. Maybe it will be cheaper to buy a newer builder. What year do you guys recommendations?

[Tervuren]

Originally Posted by Rasta Monsta

Perhaps a gokart is more your speed?

Its about $100K a year to race a decent kart. Speed and cost are not always related.

[Rasta Monsta]

Granted, most of what you're saying is way over my head, but I'm still not following how Spec944 is an "advertised stock class?" It's really closest to Improved Touring, which is nowhere near "stock."

[Guest765]

Originally Posted by Rasta Monsta

Your friendly and reasonable questions are basically a "slippery slope" argument. . .look it up, it is a logical fallacy.

If you think ceramic coatings are unfair, then lobby the group to repeal header wraps as allowable, if you believe insulated headers are a huge advantage. Frankly, I don't think the HP difference amounts to jack *****.

As to your assertions that your wallet shouldn't impact your on-track performance, you are living in fantasy land. It is auto racing. If the guy next to you can afford fancy blueprinted injectors and you can't, you are at a disadvantage. If the guy next to you can afford fresh shaved RA1s for each race weekend and you can't, you are at a disadvantage. If you insist on "protesting" a cheap mod based on some weird principle, you will miss out on race weekends while we are all out having fun.

New rules, new parts? Hogwash. . .this is a minor proposal to a ten year old ruleset that has had very few changes.

Perhaps a gokart is more your speed?

And you say I'm a jagoff. Perhaps not posting on something "way over your head" is more your speed?

[Rasta Monsta]

Originally Posted by Tervuren

Its about $100K a year to race a decent kart.

Guess we're fortunate here. Portland has both indoor and outdoor tracks with active racing leagues. . .show up and run their carts. Cheap, wheel to wheel racing that tests the drivers, not the car prep.

[johnkoawood]

Originally Posted by vdubr928

Thanks racer. I think ill get started on my engine anyway. Or maybe look for a more elligable builder. What is the advantage with the 88+ motor? Mine is 87.

Check your engine codes / CR.. PNs can also help for the head and or pistons..

SOME 87 motors were built to 88 specs (higher CR, slightly higher HP output on the M44/09 vs M44/07).. this was done using specific year parts.. (hence the checking of the part numbers). output is 158 (M44/09) vs 150 (M44/07)...

You WILL find several refferences that list the M44/07 87 motor as 10.2:1 CR.. this is a contradiction to the numbering scheme of the motors (M44/07 is 87 and earlier motor, the 88 switched to M44/09.. the 89 2.7L is M44/11, 12..

YMMV, good luck.. the 88 motor (is a one year built motor) has different pistons, a different head, and interchangeable but different block IIRC...

As far as header coatings, on an NA car, they do little more than keep the heat in the exhaust and out of the engine bay.. on a turbo car that is a whole other ball of wax!

Higher strength valve springs are great.. for a motor spinning higher RPMs than oh say 7000... but that is beyond much of the other internal bits ability, so if you have all stock components.. higher pressure valve springs do little more than add to parasitic drains on the engine.. but I could be wrong.

[Bamf3000]

Originally Posted by johnkoawood

YMMV, good luck.. the 88 motor (is a one year built motor) has different pistons, a different head, and interchangeable but different block IIRC...

As far as header coatings, on an NA car, they do little more than keep the heat in the exhaust and out of the engine bay.. on a turbo car that is a whole other ball of wax!

Higher strength valve springs are great.. for a motor spinning higher RPMs than oh say 7000... but that is beyond much of the other internal bits ability, so if you have all stock components.. higher pressure valve springs do little more than add to parasitic drains on the engine.. but I could be wrong.

I'm pretty positive that neither the block nor the head is different than the -87 motors. If they had a different head, they never would have allowed the motor in the class. The pistons are higher compression, but the 88 motor is more of a novelty from what I have read than it is a necessity.

I 100000% agree with header wrap or coating doing much on a NA car as far as performance goes. I think that is the issue here, since SPEC944 currently allows wrap but not coating for a more than likely unresearched/unfounded reason. It sounds more like when they allowed an aftermarket header and people put coatings on them, directors/racers associated the coating with part of the performance gain when it was directly related to the header only, when comparing to a header wrap.

There is not performance or reliability gained going to a stronger valve spring with a stock motor. Anyone who is having issues with the stock springs is cheating, doesn't know how to build a motor, or has a a motor that was beat to hell in the past and probably overrevved at some point. Plain and simple.

Vdub,

I would worry less about any possible rule changes as they are likely to be VERY minute and just get the car put together as is. More than likely any rule changes will not be a necessity to compete. The coating would be like switching to a 944 turbo radiator just because you think it has better cooling but 98% of racers run the stock configuration.

Currently the rule is wrap is allowed and I don't know of anyone that runs it, so a coating would not even be a consideration if you weren't already considering the wrap. I just find the wrap to be more of a safety issue than it is worth, so I agree with allowing a coating.

END RANT lol.

[johnkoawood]

Originally Posted by Bamf3000

I'm pretty positive that neither the block nor the head is different than the -87 motors. If they had a different head, they never would have allowed the motor in the class. The pistons are higher compression, but the 88 motor is more of a novelty from what I have read than it is a necessity.

M44-09 1988 head part number (core head, without any aditional bits) is P/N 944.104.033.08.. thru 87 was part number 944.104.033.06..

Short blocks also bear a different part number (although this COULD be attributed to the M44.09/10 pistons, P/Ns 944.103.088.02,12,22,52,62,72)

88 is also the only year that ROW CR and U.S. CR were the same (only one engine was used globally in 88, previous years ROW got higher compression than the U.S.).

The above information is from the PET, and matches all the factory documentation for our cars (machinists handbook, factory maintenance manuals, etc..)

I suppose I could research a bit more (or just take a look at my 88 motor..) but I am satisified with the info I already have..

FWIW, were I looking to build a spec car.. I would start with an early chassis, add the entire drivetrain and EMS out of an 88, rebuild the motor (have head decked to the factory limit .5mm off the block sealing surface) and go from there..

[Rasta Monsta]

Head down, Bamf. . .The Dubster is likely to start calling you names!

[vdubr928]

Lol. I like the dubster lol. And although I know that coating will give a couple of ponies, I suppose im starting to relax about the idea. See, what happened here is I expressed an un thought out opinion and then I got jumped on like some kind of party crasher. Im still interested racer inwhat other changes may be proposed. My feeling was...... damnit. I just started on this thing and the rules are going to change. How much is that going to cost.. lol im actually a reasonable guy who can be talked to. Go figure. I guess what makes sense for me is to go talk to my local spec racers and see how many of them would rip the header off of theirs and haul ballsdown to the coated. That would help me determine if the money is neccesary to stay competitive locally. Alot less about the header then it was /is about changing in the middle of my build. I have honestly had very little time lately to even work on the car so I suppose I have very little vested here. Just because I don't agree fully doesn't mean you have to jump down my a** about it. Id still rather not allow them. But im less adamant about my reasons why so I think your well directed reasoning has had some effect. Rasta, slow your roll a little brother. I certainly don't deserve to be talked to so agressivly just because I don't agree. And in person absolutely wont tolerate it.you talk like spec is yours and if I don't want to run with coated headers then go find another class. If that is the case..... I would.

[Rasta Monsta]

Originally Posted by vdubr928

Rasta, slow your roll a little brother. I certainly don't deserve to be talked to so agressivly just because I don't agree. And in person absolutely wont tolerate it.

Well, I certainly never called you names or accused you of being dishonest in any way, which is more than I can say for the comments you directed at me.

As for "in person," better eat your Wheaties.

[vdubr928]

Lol. I stand my own. Point being that when you start making comments like maybe you should be in stock or kart, you provoke people. I don't respond well to being provoked. It was not a challenge.

[vdubr928]

Originally Posted by Rasta Monsta

Dub, sounds like you need to run showroom stock. . .$200 on ceramic coatings to try to make our motors last longer is a drop in the bucket compared to arriving at Square One where it stands now.

Fir instance. I never said I couldnt afford to coat. I said coating has no place in a low budget class. Just accept any appoligies due and don't be so aggressivly against me. Its obvious you don't like me. Now everybody knows. I disagree with coatings. I don't want to run gokarts. Its established. Let's move on.

[Rasta Monsta]

Hmm, I don't dislike you (remember, I didn't call you any names), and did not note an apology from you (remember, you called me childish and dishonest).

Perhaps the carrier pigeon got lost?

[vdubr928]

No, I said if you are blueprinting isn't that cheating? Childish, yes. You have no right to imply that im out of my league simply because I disagree with adding costs to this class. Im pretty sure that I've shown that much here. You don't own spec nor can you dictate terms. You jumped me because I disagree with your opinion. Pretty sure that is something I've accused my 10 year old of lately. This was a discussion thread was it not?I meant no direct appolagy. More of a blanket one for letting your comments get the better of me. In a way though, I did offer a peace of sorts and it is plain where your stance is on that. Again not the actions of a full firing adult imho. Go ahead and ride out if here on your horse. You have said that I am poor, that Im not skilled or financially capable enougg to race spec, and now attempting to turn the tables on me when it was you who said you were blueprinting (which I still haven't gotten an answer as to the legality of) but am pretty sure is against spec rules. You started this because...... why? Because you're still mad that I repaired a turbo warm up regulator with non turbo parts? Who cares. I don't have to call it like it is. You're listing it all over the damn internet. Lol

[vdubr928]

Originally Posted by vdubr928

Fir instance. I never said I couldnt afford to coat. I said coating has no place in a low budget class. Just accept any appoligies due and don't be so aggressivly against me. Its obvious you don't like me. Now everybody knows. I disagree with coatings. I don't want to run gokarts. Its established. Let's move on.

Pretty sure this qualifies as a blanket im sorry that we don't get along and an offer to agree to disagree. I don't feel I owe you anything more than that after your advertised feelings about my finances and such.