early 911 v 944

[Deeks]

A question for you lucky guys who have owned, or have experienced both of the above.

In the Uk, you can easily pick-up a decent 3 litre (205bhp) 911 SC Targa for the same price as a mint 951 or S2 (£9-10k). Assuming that you were going to carry out some of the basic maintenance work yourself, you could only afford one OR the other, and you didn't have unlimited cash to plough into the car, realistically, which would you choose....? ( biased answers also welcome) .

Choose your weapon ......

[Z-man]

My vote would be for a 944S2. Why?

1. Most importantly: the 944's are more forgiving when driven hard. IE: Get in trouble with a 944, you can save it. Get in the same trouble with a 911, you'll be going off the road. Unless of course, you're a seasoned driver: then you should be able to handle the 911's quirkiness. (It's been said that the 911's design is a terrible design, perfectly executed!)

2. Maintenance: it is easier to work on a 944 than a 911. It's alot a bit cheaper, unless you get an S2 or turbo, but even then, it's about the same cost.

3. Cost/age ratio: you can get a newer S2 for the same price as an older 911. Newer tends to be better regarding long term maintenance, wear/tear items, rust issues...etc.

There's more, but I gotta a meeting to go to,
-Zoltan.

[Deeks]

Coulda guessed Zoltan would vote for the S2.

The reason why, is cos I'm buying my first Porsche. I love the aircooled philosophy (and sound) and the brutal straight line acceleration along with the seat of your pants corners. I remember going for a ride in my uncle's 3.2 Carrera when I was young..... accelerating hard out of a roundabout, feeling the car squatting on it's haunches and lifting it's front inner wheel well off the tarmac... I wanna do that !!
Can anyone
However, the 3 litre SC engine's one of the toughest variations of the aircooled flat-six ever made (imagine not having to worry about timing belts snapping on you!) and if looked after well will run to the end of the earth....downside.. I don't want an accident write of within 12 months of buying my Porsche. Hence the attraction of the 50:50 balanced 944.

Can anyone give any comparisons of 944/911 ownership ??

[Eturbo924]

I agree with Zoltan there. The SC can be a fun car but the 951 and 944S2 are superior cars. They all have issues with maintenance, but I feel the 944s are easier to work on. Most of the 911 engine work needs to be done from under the car or by removing the engine.

The 911 and 944s .... to save them you do the same thing. If you go into a turn to fast and lift off..... tail comes around ....what do you do..... some say OH SH_T! and hit the brakes.... now in a 944 some times this is ok... but in a 911 you will go off into the weeds tail end first. The correct thing to do in most circumstances like that above is to get back onto the throttle stabilize the car and steer through the turn why gradually bringing the speed down. The 944 is much much easier to do this... the 911 is much much more difficult and you do not have the safety factor. Anyone that thinks you can not spin a 944 this way has not gone WAY TO FAST into a turn.. ha ha. I have seen it... Have not spun my 944.... though almost spun my 924 this way when I was 18.

Anyway this is getting long. I would take the 951 or S2.

Eric

[Blackfoot]

if you're the kind of guy who feels the need to attract attention for whatever reason, either due to physical or emotional shortcomings, go for the 911.

if you want a car that is just about as fast, yet easier to control and waaaaay more stable at high speed, get the s2, or if you want upgradeable acceleration that the other two cannot ever hope to match, get the 951.

[thamlin000]

I own a 944. I've driven two 911s in my life; a lowly optioned 77 911S and a 97 993.

Both 944s and 911s have their goods and bads.

My impressions of 911s:
-better steering
-better brakes
-stiffer platform
-sound better
-better quality of materials
-better ride

My impression of 944s:
-higher handling limits
-better shifter
-more room
-cheaper parts
-easier to use foot petals
-more comfortable

944s make better daily drivers due to their comfort and utility. 944 Turbos can be easily modified to leave 911s and even 930s in the dust. In terms of Porsches, 944 Turbos are the best performance value.

911s have such a great feel and sound to them. From what I've heard, mastering the quarky 911's handling is a lot more rewarding than the more "user-friendly" 944.

Both are great, well-engineered sports cars. You couldn't go wrong with either. I think you should drive both cars and develop your own opinion. Do a search of this topic, we've covered it a lot.

Good luck.

[wolfrpi]

Unless your independently wealthy or you are very good with car repair I'd suggest you purchase an S2 or late model Turbo.

I own both and the cost differential between owning and maintaining a 911 and 944 is very large. The "decent" 911 will most likely be a beater and be more prone to expensive problems. Trust me on this one - they (911s) are very expensive to maintain correctly. Also a beater will most likely need an engine rebuild, etc, etc.

20k later you'll have late 70's technology and looks for 90's pricing. If you must have a 911 you almost certainly have to step up to the plate and buy a nice (expensive) one.

[Deeks]

I will be the first to admit that both the 944 and the 911 are beautifully engineered masterpieces, both with their pros and cons, as Thamlin pointed out !!!

BUT....

What I'm asking is will owning a 944 really allow me to live the PORSCHE Dream ? Will it provide me with the passion, the involvement, the aural (dare I say it) delights of a flat six revving to 6000 revs behind your head ??

For me the practical answer is 944, though the Porsche dream is probably different to everyone of us. Maybe someone should transplant a 3.2 Careera engine into the back seats of a 944, and create a mid-engined 911 sounding 944 ??

Blackfoot - no physical or emotional shortcomings as far as I
know... just a dream....

[turtle944]

As to living the porsche dream......
That is subjective. As you can see from these postings, the 944 owners are passionate about their cars. They are stable, fun, and deciently quick. I have owned a 944 for almost 5 years now, and I love it. Sure you see a 3.2 carrera or a 993, and you say "WOW!", but the 944 is tons of fun.

Now, I wouldn't say don't get the 911 though. I have driven 2.7,3.0, and 3.2s and they have a whole different feel. The 911 is throaty. The roar of the engine behind you with the windows down, targa top off, and nothing but open road ahead of you is intoxicating. The styling is lots better, and its more recognized.

To sum up, I feel that the 944 is a great first porsche to own. It will allow you to ease into maintenance, drive a car with porsche feel, and allow you to drive it all the time.

So, if you want a porsche to drive alot, hard, often, then a 944 is the easier choice. (Try a 1 hour stop and go drive to work in a 3.0 SC. Yikes!). But if you want a project car, something to tweek and only drive on weekends or trips, or if you love the roar, get a 911. Either way, you'll come to love the porsche line!

[Eturbo924]

Deeks
The 911 for viceral feel and sound can not be matched by many cars. I grew up in a house with 924 my first Porsche experience. This car was then replaced by a 1984 911 Carrera (though it, 924 became mine when I turned 17). Then in 1989 my Father purchased a Carrera 4. Man I love the sound of the flat six at full song!

That said. I did not care for the long shifter of the older Carreras. I do not think I could go back to that after the Carrera 4 and the 944/924 that I now have. For a cruise car... yes I would love it. for a car to auto-x or take to the track. I would prefere a 944 or Newer Carrera (964 chassis or newer)

One more comparison for you. My frined who has an 89 944S2 was considering "upgrading" to a 911. The SC is the only one that is in the approx. price range for a small step up in price. So he was lucky to line up against one on the highway one night. Seems the SC driver wanted to run the S2... so my friend gave it a go from 70mph.... Long story short. My frined has decided that an SC is not good enough since he walked right away from the SC up over 100mph.

My money would still go to the S2 over an SC. You get more speed, better brakes (ABS) more cornering power, better ergonomics, and easier maint.

Though like I said... nothing like a nicely tuned flat six at full song!

Peace

Eric

[Deeks]

Cheers for the advice / stories / experiences and comparisons..... plenty of food for thought.

At the end of the day though, whatever you drive.....

........PORSCHE.......There is no substitute (the gospel)

[Z-man]

Originally posted by Deeks
..What I'm asking is will owning a 944 really allow me to live the PORSCHE Dream ? Will it provide me with the passion, the involvement, the aural (dare I say it) delights of a flat six revving to 6000 revs behind your head ??

Deeks: Yes it will! My regional Porsche club had a Driver's Ed event this past week at Lime Rock Park (Conn. USA), and there were all sorts of cars playing. It seems that almost everyone had great respect for each other's cars! Several 911 owners commented on how beautiful my 944S2 is! A 996TT guy in my run group actually said that I was the only car that was able to keep up with him! (I actually got around him a couple of times! hehe).

So, can a 944 instill the Porsche passion? Absolutely! The true Porsche enthusiasts are the ones who respect all models and enjoy the 'brotherhood' regardless of what make or horsepower or whatever the car has!

I am very fortunate that my club members have such a respect for each other!

-Zoltan.

[kenny]

Though I've never owned a 911, I was hot on buying one a few years ago -- I drove quite a few. They look great and it's like driving a gocart (be it an a$$ heavy gocart!).

For me it boiled down to cost. I got a 75K mi 951 that had practically slept at the foot of the PO's bed. Always garaged, maintained, Fuchs, R134 conversion, great paint, 930S streering wheel etc. -- all for just $12K. That same 911 would have been nearly double!

So... for me it wasn't worth getting a 911 and I echo the others who have commented that the 944's are a more modern car which seems to bear out -- more comfort (but not too heavy), quieter for regular driving, more balanced. The coolest thing is that everybody thinks the 951 is much more expensive car than it really is and it's a hoot to drive!

[RPM'S S2]

911SC
heritage
sound
shape
performance
instant Porsche identification

944S2
performance
balance
ergonomics/comfort
daily ease
heating/air conditioning

In a warm climate the S2 wins easily as the ventilation in a pre-87 911 is sort of a joke. However, I owned my '77 911 in Germany and never really noticed the problem.

I love my S2, but I am always looking for an affordable 87 or 88 911 with low mileage at a good price.

[Deeks]

Sounds like what I need is two Porsches :

944 S2 for daily use
(comfort, smoothness, a/c, perfomance)

911 RS Lwt for weekend/trackdays
(power/rawness/noise/feedback)

hhhmmmm... maybe oneday ??

[gixer02]

deeks... In response to "can the 944 really let me live the Porsche dream?"..... Let me tell you this, before I got it I wasn't too much of a car guy. I have been bitten by the Porsche Bug and now my Porsche dream is to own at least one of every model ever made. All I think about is driving and I want SOOO mant Porsches. I agree for the first p-car go with the 944. Just make sure the PO took good care of it so there's not any unexpected surprises. The reason right now I'm saving up for a SC not a 951 is because I will still keep the 944 as a snow + back up car just incase something happens to the SC. This won't be for a few years probably but it will happen one day! Oh and mind you my p-car love came from a 944 n/a... if I had a tubo or S2 that would be amazing! Ok I really didn't mean to type this much so 'll just end it here but with whatever you decide on- good luck!

Pat

[lordgrommit]

one thing that I don't think anyone has touched on .. 911's seem to need a rebuild at about 100K. We have alot of people even turbos ( ie myself ) who have 200K + on them that are still screaming around on the orig motors... The belts need to be changed but as for bullet proof I'll take a 944 series over a 911 any day.

Matt

[kfrench]

I say 911. 944s are OK but I just don't think they have the soul of the 911. Yea I've been in one of Matt's 944s and yes it was fast and has more room than my old 911 but it just didn't feel as good as an old 911. (especially 69-73). They wail of the OIL cooled flat six is almost worth the cost of admission alone. And I think if you compare repair costs a 911 and a 944 turbo would turn out to be very close. I drove mine as a daily driver for over a year without any problems.

Don't listen to that most 911s need a rebuild at 100,000 bunk. Some may need a top end rebuild at 100-150,000. It is not unusual for well maintained 911 engines to go 200-300,000 before they need a rebuild. Mine has 165,000.

Look at me posting on the 944 board. Who knew?

Karl

[wolfrpi]

The problem with a box stock 911 is that it is relatively slow. As mentioned above, an S2 is quicker in a straight line and handles better. Although the 911s sound great they are VERY expensive - don't let anyone kid you about that. The people who believe that they are cheap to maintain haven't owned theirs very long. The motors are very complex with seperate barrels for each cylinder and seperate heads for each cylinder. Every try to replace a blown oil-cooler? Or just an oil-cooler seal?

Once its repair time, most 911s go in the paper - just check the local autotrader. Matter of fact that's what you'll probably end up with if you go cheap - a 911 that needs repairs. While they look great and sound great 911s (at least stock ones) don't give you the return on your money a 944 would. Once again unless you've got the big bucks, or know someone who does be VERY careful with the 911.

[Deeks]

I don't know about over in the U.S but over here in the UK (depending on which model) any post 1981 911 would be wiping the floor with any 944 (including S2 and 951) - on a straight line, and possibly even on corners - depending on the driver ???

The post 1981 SC produces 205 bhp, but because of it's weight distribution will hit 60mph in around 5.7. Any 911 after this will just get quicker and handle better. The only 911 that might get whooped by a 944 n/a would be the early 70's 911t. The 2.7 Lux (1975-79?) was relatively slow hitting the sixty mark in just under eight seconds....that's probably on a par with the n/a !!!

Oh... and over here....any 911 over 20 years (as long as it's cared for) has become an investment. They appreciate with time.... so you'll be making money whilst driving your baby ... Now, you can't beat that !!