Advice on an S

[canyonlands]

I'm looking at an 88 944S this weekend that I've seen in passing and that I checked out for a few minutes on a Sunday when the low volume truck focused lot was closed.
I'd like to get some buyer advice if you have any. What trouble spots do I need to look for on this car? Are there any 944S buyer's guide articles online?
The car needs tires and I'm sure they won't have any records for it. I could see through the windows that the interior looked in pretty good shape but the hazard switch had been pushed through the dash face. That's what little I could tell from what I saw. Oh yeah, and mileage is supposedly somewhere around 110K. I was able to get a Carfax report and it looked clean but had little in the way of confirming mileage.
I don't know that I'll be able to find a shop to inspect the car. Not one that will know what they are looking at anyway. Porsches are few and far between in my area. Any experience you can share with me will be very much appreciated.


Thanks

Ron
stuck in Utah

[wolfrpi]

Stay real far away from an "S" if you can help it.

[canyonlands]

Originally posted by wolfrpi
Stay real far away from an "S" if you can help it.

Y U SAY THAT?

[dogslovetrucks]

I agree with Wolfrpi. The "S" is a great car but as numerous posts here in the past have noted, the potential "pia" (pain in arse) factor vs the HP/performance gain is dodgy at best.
If the car is well doc'd and a ppi confirms this, it can be a different story. Otherwise, I'd walk- theres lots of fish in the sea.

[canyonlands]

Drats. Thanks for the warning. I searched the board for "944S" and did some reading.

I have to pass this car twice a day and can't keep my eyes off it. The exterior looks to be in great shape and I figure I could get it for $6K.

I'll keep my eyes open for something else though here in northern Utah Porsches of any flavor are hard to come by. I don't want a car that's going to be a headache though.

Thanks guys.

[AFJuvat]

I wouldn't be so quick to run away from an S.

Many times they get bad press for the following:

1. They weren't that much of an improvement over the regular 8 valve engine - certainly not enough to justify the price difference when they came out.

2. The chain tensioner can be prone to failure - it isn't easy to change and tends to be a bit pricy.

3. They tend to be more expensive to maintain when compared to a regular 944.

That said, if you are considering it, absolutely, positively get it inspected before buying one - and I would be extremely wary of one without maintenance record (as you should be with any Porsche) - If you were to buy it without service records, you must then assume that the belts and the chain tensioner would require service.

AFJuvat

[canyonlands]

So, #1 you list should no longer be a factor with regards to the owner to car relationship.

#2, is that the same proceedure listed at:
http://boerger.golden-tech.com/images/cam_chain_tensioner_replacement.htm

It doesn't appear to sound very difficult but what do I know without giving it a try.

#3, is this not directly related to the additional mid-cam tensioner (your #2) or is it due to other factors?

Absolutely on the timing belt comment. If no records are available then I factor in the cost of the job when making my offer. Too many folks decide to unload their cars when the timing belt is due for me to be a gambler on this issue.

Cheers,

Ron

Originally posted by AFJuvat
I wouldn't be so quick to run away from an S.

Many times they get bad press for the following:

1. They weren't that much of an improvement over the regular 8 valve engine - certainly not enough to justify the price difference when they came out.

2. The chain tensioner can be prone to failure - it isn't easy to change and tends to be a bit pricy.

3. They tend to be more expensive to maintain when compared to a regular 944.

That said, if you are considering it, absolutely, positively get it inspected before buying one - and I would be extremely wary of one without maintenance record (as you should be with any Porsche) - If you were to buy it without service records, you must then assume that the belts and the chain tensioner would require service.

AFJuvat

[wolfrpi]

I've bought about a dozen Porschs over the past 2 years. When I see a 944S in the paper I intuitively glance over. I've seen them for as little as $1000. The phone doesn't even get picked up. That's how far away I stay and for good reason. Its just not worth the hassle for an old car that's about as quick as a honda civic.

If you want reliability get an 8 valve

If you want to go fast get a turbo

If you want to go fast and have reliability buy a new car

Those are the lessons I've learned in dealing with the 924/944

[Rob-O]

As usual I disagree. Besides the motor, what else is different than the 8 valve? Not much.

Wolfpri said he's owned a dozen P-cars over the last two years, how many of the "S" version?

I had one, I thought it was a fine car (I'd post pictures, but she's....she's....gone). The only problems I ever had with the vehicle were those that also plague the Turbo and the n/a.

On the things that we know of that go bad on 944's (clutch, steering rack, motor mounts, timing belts, water pump), most are just about the same price as those of the normally aspirated version. And usually less than the Turbo parts. Really, probably 85% of the parts on these vehicles (clutch master cylinder, clutch slave cylinder, brake pads, brake pad sensors, the list goes on and on) crossover from "S" to n/a. Some even from the Turbo to the "S" and n/a.

Same brakes as the n/a. Same suspension as the n/a. Same body as the n/a. Same interior as the n/a. I mean, if the cars a turd, it's a turd. Don't buy it. If it's sweet, it's sweet. Don't dump the car just because it's an "S". We went around this subject in earlier posts. So Wolfpri you had a bad experience with an "S", tons of people had/have bad experiences with the Turbo's and the n/a's also.

Canyonland, if you're interested, take it to the local (Porsche)dealership, have them give it a good going over. If they give it the thumbs up, deal away. If they don't, keep looking.

But Wolfpri, what's up with marginally more power than a Honda Civic? C'mon Dude, are you on your medication again? What is your definition of "marginally"? Last years (2002) 1.7 L VTEC Honda Civic made 127 horsepower. The 944"S" made 188 h.p. A difference of 61 h.p.

By comparison the 944 Turbo made 217. The difference between the 944 Turbo and the 944 "S" is 29 h.p. Even THAT is a little more than what I would consider marginal. 6 horsepower, now that might be marginal. But 61? Yeah, you won't feel that difference (?!?). I've driven all three, the n/a, the "S" and the turbo. In each I can feel the power difference (Chime in here anytime Ballgofar). Please do some homework before you spread the "stupid" disease.

I looked at that tensioner under the valve cover and I'll bet I could have that job done in less than an hour and a half. Been in there a couple of times now, I think the last time I did a valve cover gasket job it was completed in about 20 minutes, and that was letting the sealant firm up a bit before we threw it back onto the car. But if that's the type of job that would scare you away from owning a Porsche, and that includes any of the 944 models (the youngest of which are approaching 15 years old), then you would be safe to look at a new car. Of course if that type of work scares you, you probably shouldn't own any fifteen year old car.

As always, my .02 and then some.........


Rob-O

[BallGoFar]

Ron,

I'm sorry that Erick had some bad luck with the 'S' that he owned. If you do a little research on this board, you'll find that every time one of these cars comes up, he will discourage the potential buyer. I really believe that he just doesn't care for them, kind of a personal preference thing.

I'm fortunate enough to currently own a 1987 S and absolutely love the car. This is my second Porsche. My first one was a 1986 N/A with 90K miles and my current 944 S has 71K miles. I'm a fanatic about maintenance so I'd like to think I can speak from at least some experience.

Parts for the 'S' in my experience haven't been any harder to find...yet. I live in Dallas and I'm about 20 minutes away from Zims and have been lucky enough to become pretty good buddies with some of the guys over there and they take good care of me.

In terms of the car you're currently looking at: if there are no records and you don't have anywhere to take the car for a good PPI, then keep looking, but then again you'd want records and a PPI on any 14 year old Porsche, wouldn't you?

If you can get someone who's knowledgeable to help you with a PPI and you're satisfied, then you should factor in some inherent costs. Things like the tensioner, belts, tune-up, etc. If you fairly competent with a wrench, you'll be able to do most of your own work, which is the real key to owning these cars and keeping them on the road.

In terms of just owning one? It's a great car and I get compliments all the time. People, even knowledgeable Porsche people seem to appreciate that the 'S' is relatively rare. I went into owning this car with my eyes open and knew that to get it to where I thought it should be would take some time and money. Also, you should know that like golf, perfection is pretty much unattainable unless you have an unlimited budget. There's always some little thing that needs to be fixed or fiddled with or tightened or replaced.

It's not a very 'quick' car but it wasn't designed to be. It was designed as an Autobahn cruiser. It doesn't wake up until about 4500 rpm, then you'll understand why Porsche designed a 16 valve engine for these cars. If you need any more detail on day to day ownership or what I think of the 'S' and the N/A, feel free to email me.


Hope this helps,

Dustin
ballgofar@verizonmail.com

[BallGoFar]

Ron,

In case you're interested:

[wolfrpi]

Let me rephrase:

Its like going to Vegas and putting your money on the red or black

Winning gamblers are always happy...lol

[wolfrpi]

Since this argument seems to come up every few months I'll try to spell out something that seems simple and logical to me and hopefully to others:

1) Value of old 944s +3-6k

2) All 944s suffer from potential cam belt failure -1-2k

3) 944S suffers from poor tensioner - head breaks -2-3k

4) All 944 NAs suffer from rubber center clutch -1-2k

5) All 944s suffer from poor oiling at high rpm (and shouldn't be run there for very long) - the S is more likely to suffer because max tq and hp is reached at high rpm -4-6k



The number of potential problems with these older cars is already pretty high - I don't see why its worth taking a risk on a very moderate performance increase.

The S shares brakes, suspension and almost everything else with the 8 valve. Unlike the turbo there are very few upgrades over the basic 8 valve.

To give everyone here an example:

I sold a used head on Ebay from my old 87 S. The head which had damage on 1 combustion chamber (from losing #2) went for $1200+.

The head had over 150k on it.

Guess who bought it? A guy who just bought an S and had the head explode on him. That's right when the chain snaps the head cracks in addition to the valves bending. On an 8 valve only your valves will crack if you lose a belt.

A used 8 valve head in decent shape is $150.

So no, it is not all personal. In fact a lot is logical.

I had a beautiful 87 S. In fact it was the first to receive the wolf bumper mod. I learned the hard way that high rpms and the 944 motor do not mix. Others learned that the chain and tensioner on the 944S head can quickly turb to junk (the head on my motor was cracked by the previous owner at less than 50k).


Do what you want but consider yourself warned.

[canyonlands]

Thanks for the replies folks.

Myself, I've had somewhere over 40 cars in the past 15 years, most European. We have 3 cars and a 2000 BMW sport bike currently. Many vehicles have weaknesses and maintenance issues that simply cannot be neglected. Surely there are plenty of 944Ss out there that are well loved and well maintained. The car in question seems to have been owned by the same person for 90% of its life. What has happened in its recent past, I don't know.

Right now, I'm looking for a car that will be a fun daily driver and the right size for my 60-mile a day commute. This route includes two trips through a canyon with over 25 significant twists and countless minor steering inputs. The handling characteristics of the 944 are more important to me than how it compares to a Honda from red-light to red-light.

I spent the first half of my driving life looking to go as fast as possible. This included 155+mph runs in my own cars and 170+ mph runs in a friend’s Lamborghini. I also had many a good mile in a close pal's RS America. I wish he still had that one. I won't even go into the hours I've spent in F-16 Fighting Falcons.
These days I rarely ever do better than 20 over the posted and can be found at 10 over most of the time.

I'm not so worried about tensioners, balance shafts and belts. My cars can be scheduled for down time at regular intervals with no problem. Doing that kind of thing myself is no stretch either.

The norm for me is to buy from 1st or 2nd owners having all records so this car is already at a disadvantage. I'm the 2nd owner on all of my current cars and 1st on the bike. Such 944s are going to be few and far between though or at least not likely to turn up around here.

In the next few days I'll be stopping by the lot to take a closer look, go for a drive and ask some pointed questions. We'll see.

Thanks for all the advice. It's been a great help.

[canyonlands]

Originally posted by BallGoFar
Ron,

In case you're interested:

Very nice!

Cheers,

Ron (stating the obvious)

[AFJuvat]

Canyonlands, you fly vipers?

What squadron were you in at Luke?

AFJuvat

[Z-man]

canyonlands:
First off, I have compiled a 944 checklist (based on an Excelence magazine article) that you may be interested it. Email me and I can send it to you: z-man@pelicanbbs.com While a checklist is no substitute for a Pre-purchase inspection, it will certainly help!

Second: Any Porsche dealership can do a pre-purchase inspection. It may be costly (Up to $150.00!), and they may not see too many 944's these days, but they are probably your best bet. Also, check with the Intermountain Porsche Club of America region: they can probaly refer you to an independant Porsche mechanic. Here is their website:
http://vista.pca.org//int/

As an owner of a 944S2, I must say that it is really not bad to own a 16 valve 944. Granted, a 944S and 944S2 are two very different cars, but the 944S doesn't get the credit it deserves. (Sidenote: the 944S2 shares the 16 valve head with the 944S, but has a 3.0 liter vs. a 2.5 liter engine, and thus produces more hp. Also: it has the turbo brakes, and turbo nose and rear valence)
With proper maintenance, both the 944S and 944S2 can offer you very, very reliable service and they are truly durable cars. I just had my cam chain assembly (tensioner and guide) replaced this winter. It was a fairly expensive item (along with the other stuff I had done like timing belt, rollers, gaskets, brakes..etc) but I don't have to worry about it for 100k miles! I've had my car on the track, and it never gives me trouble. Phil, a buddy of mine & 944S owner and I autocross in the same class: we are neck and neck: last event he eeked me out by 0.006 seconds! (He does have a chip and other small mods!)

So, what I'm saying is if you apply the necessary maintenance to the 944S, you can have a very reliable and fun car!

Just my 42
-Zoltan.

[944S Boyeee]

Ok - here is the bottom line.....

The Cam Chain itself is not a worry. The Tensioner itself can be changed by a backyard wrench. The main thing that actually breaks are the nylon pads the chain runs across. To inspect these pads, simply remove the Cam cover and take a peek.

THAT'S IT!!! Nothing else! Everything else is JUST LIKE THE N/A!!!

The pre 88' S heads are prone to cracking for some reason (so I have heard) - perhaps that is why Wolf had his problems. So, just don't buy an 87 S.

As for the S being only as fast as a Civic - then that would mean the N/A is only as fast as a Yugo, cause the S IS faster!! That is why it's called the 944 Super. You can feel the extra horses.

I can see why Wolf is warning everyone, he is try to save someone the same headaches he had, but remember Wolf, you could also be depriving someone of a great car.

In my opinion (as an S owner) there is no real risk in buying one over a N/A. Just get the Cam Tensioner done and enjoy.

944S Boyeee

[Panzer909]

Canyonlands,

Don't be shy and pull over when you drive past the "S" in question. Although a bit pricey, I cannot stress a good PPI enough - if you're genuinely serious about it.

Whatever the outcome, know that yes, there ARE other fish in the sea. Do not feel that: "oh, this is the only decent prospect around - I hope to God it works out....it must!" (I'm like this with first dates)

Wolfpri - I'm sorry you have such a bad taste in your mouth about the S. 16 valve heads blow up from chain pad neglect - not a difficult fix. Truth of the matter is I have an '87 944S with 140,000mi and have nothing but great things to say about it. The only issues I've had to adress are specific to the entire 944 range (i.e. control arms, noisy rear hatch, mystery shimmy at speed). Look at this thread; you're vastly outnumbered, buddy.

[ae1969]

buy the flippen car allready....................

Any porsche is better than no porsche.