Quick questions about hated LS1

[Arthropraxis]

Definitely, go with hydroboost. Cost is about the same as getting a dual master cylinder with a balance bar set up correctly. If you want to retain the Porsche master cylinder there is an adapter sold that can match it to the Ford hydroboost system. If you have a machinist there are schematics he can go by to fabricate one.

[djnolan]

Well, I have been following the discussion with interest. At first based on what Flash said, it didn't sound like a good handling car was possible.

But then Murray provided his basic build sheet: 90 S2 brakes and suspension, 250lbs front springs, 28mm rear TBars. Big Sway bars, Koni's. Engine is built LS1, long tube headers, S2 Transaxle, hydroboost.

Well at least you have a target to shoot for and that sometimes is half the battle. However time is money so if you want another old codgers advice, make a very detailed plan (material list, part list, tool list, assembly instructions, etc.) , save up your money, get all of the parts, tools, shop supplies, gaskets, seals, etc together. Find a good place to do the work, including a lift if possible. And then build her in a month or less. And then enjoy her.

If you have to buy a beater to drive while she is apart, then do so.

Me, I have plenty of money and would either do it this way, or buy a Vette or a 928 if I wanted V8 power with the 50/50 weight distro.

Best of luck and if it goes well send us a postcard.

And I have never attempted a repair on a 944 that didn't take at least three to ten times as long as I planned due to delays in getting parts i didn't realize I would need, or bad weather, or other commitments, or the super bowl or whatever.

[Pipemaster]

Originally Posted by djnolan

Well, I have been following the discussion with interest. At first based on what Flash said, it didn't sound like a good handling car was possible.

But then Murray provided his basic build sheet: 90 S2 brakes and suspension, 250lbs front springs, 28mm rear TBars. Big Sway bars, Koni's. Engine is built LS1, long tube headers, S2 Transaxle, hydroboost.

Well at least you have a target to shoot for and that sometimes is half the battle. However time is money so if you want another old codgers advice, make a very detailed plan (material list, part list, tool list, assembly instructions, etc.) , save up your money, get all of the parts, tools, shop supplies, gaskets, seals, etc together. Find a good place to do the work, including a lift if possible. And then build her in a month or less. And then enjoy her.

If you have to buy a beater to drive while she is apart, then do so.

Me, I have plenty of money and would either do it this way, or buy a Vette or a 928 if I wanted V8 power with the 50/50 weight distro.

Best of luck and if it goes well send us a postcard.

And I have never attempted a repair on a 944 that didn't take at least three to ten times as long as I planned due to delays in getting parts i didn't realize I would need, or bad weather, or other commitments, or the super bowl or whatever.

I completely feel you. Thats my plan too. Got the LM7 and its in my garage now. Now onto cleaning it and stripping my engine bay. The wiring harness on the LM7 is pretty shot though honestly. But, no kidding about it taking longer than planned on everything. Murray did give me a good goal to get to

[flash968]

i'm not being negative. you guys are getting me all wrong. in fact, i like the idea of a V8 in a 944. i would have bought a 928 if they made it in a convertible (the kits don't work). i just haven't seen it done right yet, and the ones i have seen drive like trucks, and not the smooth balanced feel the 944 has. i'm sure somebody has done it. so far, nobody has published any real data here though. if anybody has gotten close to having a good car, i'll bet they spent a bucket on it.

the thing that finally stopped me from doing the conversion, when i blew the engine in the 968, was the gearing. no chance i wanted to be sitting listening to a V8 revving at 3400 rpm on the freeway. the cost to change the gearing, and to have a ring and pinion that would hold up to the torque, was just too much. i've blown up too many rear ends and transmissions mating up V8s to drivetrains that were meant for half the torque.

i call into question the stat of 100s of these being out there. so far, i have heard of about two dozen that are driven, but with no reviews from non-owners. nobody who builds one of these is going to put forth anything less than full praise. it's like facebook. who cares how many likes if you don't provide dislikes? i want to see the ratio of likes to dislikes.

what i do know is that there have been an awful lot of these projects started, with not a lot published about the finished product. there have also been an awful lot of them for sale. one has to ask the question about just how great it is if that is the case.

i would not be surprised that in the background there are some guys with these that are going to be contacting pipemaster and try to sell them their car "that only needs some small stuff to be finished".

as for weight, you have to weigh the car before and after. i do that with all of the cars i set up. the corner scales will tell all (and everybody should be corner-balancing their car). i will bet good money that with an LM7 the car will be close to 200lbs heavier than the stock 944, and most of it on the front wheels. even the LS1 makes it over 100lbs heavier. you have to consider ALL of the things involved, and not just try to compare the published complete weight of a 944 engine (with alternator, etc, as the germans weigh it) and the dry weight of the V8 (with nothing on it, as the americans weigh it). once you get the bigger radiator in there, along with all of the electrical and ignition stuff required, and the bigger brakes, bigger sway bars, bigger springs, yada yada, you're there. is it a deal breaker? no. will it dramatically change the way the car feels and handles? heck yes

my whole point is that it can't be done on the cheap, or fast, and that flying in blind is a bad idea. all i am suggesting is that one goes in eyes wide open, and not looking through rose colored glasses. spend a few months reaching out to others who have done it. go drive some of the cars. talk a lot about real cost and time for the build.

ding ....... my popcorn is ready

[Pipemaster]

Originally Posted by flash968

i'm not being negative. you guys are getting me all wrong. in fact, i like the idea of a V8 in a 944. i would have bought a 928 if they made it in a convertible (the kits don't work). i just haven't seen it done right yet, and the ones i have seen drive like trucks, and not the smooth balanced feel the 944 has. i'm sure somebody has done it. so far, nobody has published any real data here though. if anybody has gotten close to having a good car, i'll bet they spent a bucket on it.

the thing that finally stopped me from doing the conversion, when i blew the engine in the 968, was the gearing. no chance i wanted to be sitting listening to a V8 revving at 3400 rpm on the freeway. the cost to change the gearing, and to have a ring and pinion that would hold up to the torque, was just too much. i've blown up too many rear ends and transmissions mating up V8s to drivetrains that were meant for half the torque.

i call into question the stat of 100s of these being out there. so far, i have heard of about two dozen that are driven, but with no reviews from non-owners. nobody who builds one of these is going to put forth anything less than full praise. it's like facebook. who cares how many likes if you don't provide dislikes? i want to see the ratio of likes to dislikes.

what i do know is that there have been an awful lot of these projects started, with not a lot published about the finished product. there have also been an awful lot of them for sale. one has to ask the question about just how great it is if that is the case.

i would not be surprised that in the background there are some guys with these that are going to be contacting pipemaster and try to sell them their car "that only needs some small stuff to be finished".

as for weight, you have to weigh the car before and after. i do that with all of the cars i set up. the corner scales will tell all (and everybody should be corner-balancing their car). i will bet good money that with an LM7 the car will be close to 200lbs heavier than the stock 944, and most of it on the front wheels. even the LS1 makes it over 100lbs heavier. you have to consider ALL of the things involved, and not just try to compare the published complete weight of a 944 engine (with alternator, etc, as the germans weigh it) and the dry weight of the V8 (with nothing on it, as the americans weigh it). once you get the bigger radiator in there, along with all of the electrical and ignition stuff required, and the bigger brakes, bigger sway bars, bigger springs, yada yada, you're there. is it a deal breaker? no. will it dramatically change the way the car feels and handles? heck yes

my whole point is that it can't be done on the cheap, or fast, and that flying in blind is a bad idea. all i am suggesting is that one goes in eyes wide open, and not looking through rose colored glasses. spend a few months reaching out to others who have done it. go drive some of the cars. talk a lot about real cost and time for the build.

ding ....... my popcorn is ready

The stock 944 engine weighs 365.7 lbs last time i checked. Pretty sure the LS1 weighs around 50 pounds more. And the LM7 weighs about 100lbs more than the 944 engine. Id prefer not adding that 100 over the front end. But, ill upgrade the springs if it really starts sitting poorly. I already know the handling is gonna be a nightmare compared to how it used to be. The only cars i ever drove were handling cars. Not straight line speed cars. I love the 944 as a platform and i dont want to get rid of the car. But, i want to change it up and get some straight line speed. And a little bit more reliabilty. The reliability and ease of maintenance was the main reason for the swap. But i dont want an American car. Id still like the 944 because its unique and it has some of the best styling out of any car iv seen

[flash968]

valid reasons for wanting to do it. ironically, ease of maintenance is why i didn't do it. the V8 was going to be a lot harder to take to a shop. they tend to not want to work on "project cars". as i did not want to have to do all of my own maintenance, this presented a problem.

again regarding weight, it's all of the other stuff that has to be considered too, and not just the engine itself. i wish everybody weighed things the same way, but it just isn't so. it's not the end of the word either way, but rather something to keep in mind as you go through the project, and adjust your expectations accordingly.

[9FF]

Originally Posted by Pipemaster

The reliability and ease of maintenance was the main reason for the swap. But i dont want an American car.

After I drove a friends 944 v8 a few years ago I looked into an LS swap and figured it would cost me at least $15k to accomplish to the standard I would be happy with. That includes upgrading the brakes, suspension, drivetrain and transmission to reliably handle the extra power. Instead I bought a low mile 10yo AMG tuned to 620hp by Renntech for the same money to satisfy my need for speed. It’s modern, reliable, handles like it’s on rails and nothing much on this earth can keep up with it.

I suppose what I’m saying is there are a lot of other German cars out there that will satisfy your needs for the same money, less hassle and with more reliability than a LS swapped 944. Just food for thought.

[Arthropraxis]

Nice buy for $15K is it your daily driver?

[v2rocket_aka944]

that body style is up there with the best looking "mainstream" designs ever made.
mid-00s were good years for MB.

Mike, you should wire in a speaker to the kickdown switch on that thing that says "Ludicrous speed!"

..
..
on topic the 366 lb weight for a 944 engine is fully dressed with all accessories and i believe clutch+bellhousing on it.
think about it...
bare block with crank girdle + BS covers = 60 lbs
944 crank 60 lbs
944 sohc head 30 lbs
944 sohc camshaft + housing 20 lbs ?
944 sohc intake manifold 9 lbs
944 pistons+rods x4 = 6 lbs
944 B-shafts x2 6 lbs ?
944 flywheel + clutch 30 lbs ?
944 bellhouse 10 lbs?
oil pan 10 lbs?
misc bolts 5lbs?

thats only ~250 lbs for a 944 longblock.

figure alternator, ac compressor, PS pump, camshaft weigh about the same LS vs 944.
but the extra 45lbs of block (aluminum block LS) and 30lbs of the 2nd head, bigger LS flywheel/clutch setup, those really add up.

[jcommin]

In 2006, I went thru my 83 top to bottom - my car was vandalized. Economically , I should have parted it out and walked away. i'm the original owner and it became an emotional experience. I tracked my cost and I could of bought a nice used 911 for the money I spent. I still have the car - its a garage queen, a 64K mile car, I would do it again.


Lessons learned - it will cost you, the devil is always in the details. And the costs add up. Many have opinions here - it just depends on what you want but don't delude yourself.
I would seriously consider an LS swap if my n/a blows up - but I'm going what Techno duck did - I'm a little OCD I can't do a down and dirty. The amount of money that you could spend, I would look at a 2006 Z06 Corvette.
But it's about your passion.

Good luck in whatever you decide. just remember whatever you finish makes the untouched more unfinished.

[9FF]

Originally Posted by Arthropraxis

Nice buy for $15K is it your daily driver?

Originally Posted by v2rocket_aka944

that body style is up there with the best looking "mainstream" designs ever made.
mid-00s were good years for MB.

Mike, you should wire in a speaker to the kickdown switch on that thing that says "Ludicrous speed!"

@Arthropraxis, yes it’s my daily and ive put about 10k miles a year on it. The ABC suspension let me down once, valve block, but it’s been a champ maintenance wise and I drive it hard. You can pick up 10yo+ AMG’s for under $20k, not bad considering they were $125k+ cars when new. Hand built bulletproof engines with stupid stock performance and easy aftermarket power. This is how Germany does muscle cars!

@v2rocket_aka944, I agree about the mid-00 MB’s, wish they still did a CL body style. As for power, yes there is plenty both from standstill and at the top end and the ABC active suspension is excellent! I took it around my local track for a shakedown last year and drove it until it scared me but it handled everything I could throw at it. Yet, Renntech is literally just up the road from me and my car is considered quite mild compared to what they have in their shop.

[v2rocket_aka944]

also love that "vintage" SL and CLK-AMGs.

knockouts, and the exhaust note of all of the above is bonkers.

[flash968]

you can pick up a really clean SL550 these days for less than $15k, have a hardtop/convertible, a big V8 with gobs of wheel spinning torque, 25mpg, and a much more modern car, with all the bells and whistles. i had one. it's what i frequently called "a proper car". i miss that car a lot. repairs are not cheap when you need them, but there are shops everywhere to work on them. that's a very real consideration in my world.

heck, you can probably snap up a 6 speed E46 M3 for less. had one of those too. really nice car.

[petrolhead611]

Even the stock AMG V8s make a lovely noise, and go well, so I imagine that Renntech tuned car must be quite something,
Personally, I have a BRABUS baby Mercedes, the Smart ForFour, but being a turbocharged four it doesnt have any growl. Just as well, because some circuits that I use have a 95dB driveby limit.

[flash968]

lol - i have a smart roadster with a tweaked brabus engine in it - shame they never brought that car into the states. we just picked it up here in ireland a few months ago (paid less than €2k for the car), and already i have stuck in a new tweaked motor, new bigger tires and wheels, gps, parking sensors, yada yada - i just can't leave anything alone. incredibly fun car to toss around at only 1790lbs with 125hp.

last week we just grabbed a smartfortwo cabriolet for the puddlejumper to take to the train station.

those smart cars are really something.

there are a number of cars out there that can provide the power and fun, without all the headaches. i am definitely one to polish a turd, and modify the heck out of a car well beyond its value or any sense of logic. however, i think my days of engine swaps are over. i'm just not prepared to have to do all the maintenance on a car myself anymore, and i have yet to find a shop that will work on any engine swap car without a lot of moaning and groaning, and a hefty bill for the privilege. i didn't used to even think about that, but now, i have a really hard time justifying the amount of time required to maintain such a thing.

lots to think about

[petrolhead611]

Flash, have you seen the BRABUS ForFour, only 287 sold in the UK; not sure about southern Ireland. Its easy to uprate the 177 BHP engine to 207 BHP, and up to 230 BHP is relatively easy to obtain.Over that gets expensive, but there is at least one car out there running 320 BHP.

[flash968]

i have, but i've only seen the 107hp version. i can't even find anything showing anything close to those kinds of specs. that would be a very crazy car.

we're taking this way off topic now though

[azbanks]

Originally Posted by Pipemaster

I have no kids and no other expenses. Id like to see this project end before its at least most of the way finished and at least moving. Your negativity hasnt changed a bit since Technoducks thread about this. Well, if you dont have anything positive to say then dont say it at all. We’ve all heard your thoughts on this subject. No need to keep pushing your opinion when someone clearly doesnt care for it.

Opinions are like @$$holes - everyone's got one and most of them stink.

Flash's opinion stinks worst than most.

Good luck with your build. Keep us posted. Most of us are cheering for your success.

[v2rocket_aka944]

^^hes alive !

[Pipemaster]

Well the LM7 is pretty torn down. Im not going for more power so the internals will be left alone. Got the entire engine and wiring harness for $250. Even though, the wiring harness was cut, so that doubles the work in that area. F-body accessories will be next and then flywheel. I picked up an LS4 intake manifold for $20 at a pick your part. I will be going with the renegade swap kit as for $2200 its more complete than TPC. Even though im pretty sure they are the same company lol. The engine was filthy. Its be degreased and taken back down to the shiny metal. I wont be painting anything except for the front accessories as i like the aluminum finish of the valve covers and heads