4.5 timing mark alignment issue
 

Started pulling down the front end on my 81 to do a timing belt service. When I went to line up the cam timing marks, I realized that I could not get the crank to line up on its mark.

It's not 180 out, as I can turn the engine over as many times as I want and the marks are still nowhere near where they need to be.

There are three machined divots in the face of the harmonic balancer, which I figured had to do something with the balancing of it. When I have the cams positioned at their respective marks, the timing tab on the water pump lines up with one of the divots. Possibly a coincidence, but I'm not sure.

Is there anything I'm doing wrong? If the timing was as far off as it seems to be, I don't think it would run. I'm just afraid of pulling it apart, lining up all of the marks, putting it back together and having it not run afterwards.

I can get pictures if ya'll want them.

Thanks!

Lock harmonic balancer at TDC (O/T)
Water pump has absolutely nothing to do with timing.
Cam gears have little tiny "V" cut in the back side next to rear cam cover plate. Line those tiny V's with the landscape marks on the cam cover plates and string your timing belt. Do you have a Kempf tool to measure TB tension?

Send pictures and we can help more.

The protruding tab on the water pump is what indicates that the engine is at TDC, unless I'm mistaken..

Yes, I know the cam gears have a V cut in the back of them, and line up with a raised mark on the backing plate - this is why I know that the harmonic balancer isn't where it should be.

Only thing I can think of is that the balancer has slipped.

Kempf tool is on order from Roger.

http://static.ibsrv.net/autocomm/Content/forums/rennlist/1979%20928%20TBWP%20V1%20October%202011.pdf

Say thank you to Doug B 928

Ok, so you are saying that the indicator arrow on the WP indicates the engine is at TDC? That would be correct.
Line the O/T up with the arrow/indicator, then set the cams with the V's to the appropriate marks and string the Timing belt. You will have to tension the belt somewhat before you turn the crank 2X to check timing else it will slip and you have to start over again. You have to turn the crank 2x around for the cam gears to come back up in the correct position.

Skimmed through that a few hours ago when I was fumbling about trying to solve my issue.. Sadly, he didn't have the issue I'm having.

Here are a few pictures. Cam marks are lined up, crank is not.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1564543876.JPG
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1564543876.JPG
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1564543876.JPG

First picture is drivers side, second is passenger. Third is obviously the balancer, with the timing marks nowhere in sight - they're sitting at roughly the 7 o'clock position.

Nevermind, I'm an idiot. I put the balancer back on to line the marks up when I turned the engine over and I put it on upside down.

Been there, done that.

All good, Jonah?

Yep, all good. Just got the rest of the parts I needed from Roger.

Are you driving a 928 to breakfast?

If all goes as planned. Heading home front Rogers and I have to finish the TB job and a few other things. I’ll probably be up late tonight!

Timing belt is on and the car runs. Just got back from Walmart with oil - it needs changed badly.

Hopefully i’m able to wake up on time! Gotta leave here by 6:30..

Jonah, It was great having you there in a 928. Hopefully you can get that miss figured out. Let me know if I can help.

I have a noid light set up if you need it.

I enjoyed being able to drive one!

Had a few minutes last night and I pulled the #5 plug out since it's the one that appears to be missing. Compression tested it and it has 80 PSI. Put some oil in the cylinder and it shot up to 140. The little I could see of the cylinder wall didn't look bad, but I know that doesn't mean anything. I believe the car has sat for the better part of 20 years - I know the 16 year old Yokohama's that were on it when I bought the car had full tread. Maybe it has stuck rings. I'm going to put some Marvel Mystery oil in the cylinder and soak a day or two and see if that improves anything. Might have more time tonight to test the other 7 cylinders. I'll report back when I do.

I have access to a noid light set so I'm good there!

Thanks!

The more you drive it, normally the better it will run and drive. Let me know if you need anything I might have.

ATF works pretty good as well since it is loaded with detergents.

Jonah,

Any updates?

Hey John! I let it soak with MM oil and it is running WAY better than it was. Haven't re-checked the compression but I will when I get back home in it on Sunday. I believe the MM oil helped a lot.

There's a car show and cruise that we go to every year in Vernon (up near Wichita Falls). Left the house in the 928 around 6:30 and just made it to the hotel about an hour ago. Car did just fine in the 105 degree heat.. I definitely need to get the AC working though.

It appears to be getting far better mileage than it did when I drove it to breakfast. Used 1/2 tank on that trip which is right at 120 miles. Coming up here, it used about 1/4 tank and the route I took was 160 miles. I'll have to fill it up tomorrow and see what exactly it got. Fixed some vacuum leaks, and also found that the vacuum advance and retard hoses were swapped.. which means that it was retarding the timing as I increased throttle! Not great for performance..

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1565408168.JPG

Very nice!

AC is going to be needed for a couple of months more this year anyway.

Glad your car is running better and better. Keep us posted.

Made it back without issue!

I haven't filled up since I got back, but on the trip up there, which is a GPS verified 161 miles, I used 8.04 gallons of gas, which comes out to 19.9 MPG. Not too shabby! I didn't think it would have achieved better than 14 or so. I'm definitely surprised.

My torque tube bearings were making some noise when I left. By the time I got back, the sound was much more pronounced and I think it will soon be a squeal. It's coming from the rear so I'm fairly sure its the torque converter bearings, but it's getting all of them replaced, as well as the front pump seal while its out! Car will sit until I get the parts in and I have time to do it - maybe this weekend or next.

Here it is pictured with my buddy's 78 Little Red Express, my dad's 57 Bel Air, and my step mothers 68 Camaro. I think the only other non-american car at the show was a 240z, but I had 4 or 5 people come up and talk to me that also own a 928. Definitely had a good time.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1565648135.JPG

You are sure that it's TT bearings? And not rear wheel bearings?

I'm glad you were able to drive it to the show. And home. Did you happen to get any names of the other owners?

On my trip back from Banner Elk, N.C, (1200 miles) I got 21 mpg- all highway and very fast. Cruise control was set.

Speaking of....does your cruise control work?

Yes, pretty sure it’s TT bearings. It makes the sound while stationary.

I didn’t get any of their names.

Nope, cruise doesn’t work. Would be nice if it did, though.

The cruise control is a silver box that sits on top of the tunnel under the console. It is accessed after removing the passenger side tunnel cover. IIRC, there are 2 -3 screws that hold it in place and once those are removed, the control can be slid out and detached from the connector.

If the vacuum to the cruise tested good, it is usually the solder joints inside the controller box that simply need to be re-flowed. There are probably a hundred solder joints in there to touch your soldering iron to, and it can be tedious but very doable.

On the other hand, you could just send the controller to Roger, who has a guy that rebuilds them.

If you need help or want help with those TT bearings, just give me a call when you are ready.

hey 1982 - this is the guy stepson referred me to a couple of years ago - i think it's the same guy he is talking about - he did my cruise control and it's worked perfectly ever since

JamesDean59@gmail.com

Thanks for the info on the cruise unit! I'll pull it out of the car this evening if it cools off enough. I'm decent at soldering so re-flowing the joints shouldn't be too big of an issue! If the vacuum to the cruise is fed from the same source as is the AC controls, then that could also be why it doesn't work. I have a leak back there, and my CCU is in need of serious help (Fresh air blower doesn't turn off and the compressor always has voltage). I have that vacuum line capped off currently but it didn't work before I disconnected it. I'll address all of my issues at once while I have it apart.

If I get stuck on something or otherwise wind up needing help, I'll give you a shout! I've pulled the rear suspension and trans/TT out of an 83 by myself before, so I think I'll be ok on this one. I'll probably wind up working on it in the evenings after work a little bit at a time. Thanks for the offer!

Thanks for the email address, Honerboys! I'll give him a shout if I'm not able to fix it myself.

Yes, that's the guy. He can fix your cruise control unit no matter what symptoms it shows IIRC.

But you've got to get your vacuum right first. The transmission vacuum down on top of the torque tube is one leg off the 4-way beyond the blue one way valve. The white line that goes throughout the firewall and feeds the vacuum manifold is another leg, the vacuum line that goes to the vacuum canister of the cruise control in the drivers side fender is another leg.



Also, make sure your AC head unit is the correct part number. Basically 81-83 are the same, 84-89 are the same part number.

Check your relay XXI (top row next to last relay on the right) should be a 53 relay for your fresh air blower. Or if the relay is okay, you could have a form of magic blower syndrome. No kidding!

I'll have to trace the vacuum system out! I saw where the blue one way valve hooks to a line that runs underneath the master cylinder and into the fender well.

I'll check the part number. The temperature slider is broken off of the CCU, as is the piece that's supposed to secure one of the cables to it. Someone (who shouldn't have been messing with a Porsche) has obviously been in there before - a few of the hoses were unhooked and one of the ports on the back of the vacuum switch was even plugged with a sheet metal screw.. I think I'll start searching for a better CCU. I might've bought one for my 82 6 or 7 years back but I can't remember. I'll have to look. I know the copper turd (which has a title and has been transferred into my name as of yesterday, yay!) doesn't have one in place, but it could be hiding elsewhere in the car.

I'm not quite understanding on the relay part - "if the relay is okay", it could lead to the issue I'm having? Maybe you mean if the relay is bad?

Thanks!

If you have "Magic blower syndrome" and the relay is good, the problem would be the fan resistor
See: https://rennlist.com/forums/928-forum/1144683-int-fan-blows-at-max.html

I think I have the magic blower fixed. Messed around with the CCU a bit and after doing that the blower starting working correctly. I can also now hear the relay clicking whereas I couldn't before.

I still have an issue though. I have voltage but low current to the compressor anytime the ignition is on. It has just enough amperage to make the compressor clutch drag slightly. I have to manually jump 12v to the compressor for it to engage properly.

I looked in the 83 last night and the unit does appear different to the one in my 81. The biggest difference (other than the design of the CCU face) I found is that the small panel that sits below the CCU doesn't have an "AC" push switch on it. Not sure if it would work in my 81 or not. My current head unit has part # 94.112.41.117 on it.

It does have a bunch of vacuum hoses running to it. I think all of the early cars were vacuum operated. I could be wrong though.

What year is this car?

Yes, the early AC head units use vacuum to work. I just wasn't sure when they changed to electromechanical. So yours is vacuum operated. I can't really help too much with that vacuum head unit as the only one I ever owned worked perfectly and I never needed to mess with it, so I didn't.
:)

Car is an 81.

I’ll probably be able to figure the vacuum part of it. I’m going to pull the CCU out of my 83 and see how it compares.

I'm just about 100% sure that the AC head unit from the 83 will not retrofit to the 81. I'm pretty sure the 83 is first generation electromechanical. 84-89 are second generation.

You are correct - they will definitely not interchange. 83 is electromechanical.

Jonah, Did you get power to your compressor? AC is very nice to have this time of year in Texas.

I haven't had time to mess with it much more. Been busy with other projects. Got the correct TC bearings in a few days ago now I have everything I need to do the TT service.

It's also been really hot and muggy. No fun to work on cars in weather like this, but......
it'll soon be the best time to work on cars in Texas. Warm sunny skies, cool breeze. I love to work on 928s in the fall.

I was able to avoid the hot and muggy weather yesterday and today and take advantage of my Uncle's air conditioned shop and lift to do the TT and TC carrier bearings.

Not a terribly complicated job, but definitely time consuming. Being a guy I pulled the transmission without looking up instructions to do so.. Probably would've saved some time if I had. Biggest issue (which wasn't really that big) was getting the driveshaft out of the coupler up front - turns out there is a snap ring up there. It's been quite a while since I pulled the trans on my 83, but I don't recall that snap ring. Maybe the 4 speed cars are different. The bearings I pulled out made a little noise but were fairly smooth. They might have been making some noise but I don't think they were about to fail.

All seemed to go well and hopefully I didn't mess anything up. This isn't a job I want to have to do again for quite a while. I don't believe anyone had ever had the transmission out in the past. There were paint marks on the TC bolts that were perfectly lined up (I assume these marks are factory, if they aren't maybe it's been apart before). I read one post where a guy claimed that his car only had 2 TT bearings rather than three as I was told it would have. My car only had 2, and it still had FAG bearings in it.

I did notice that all of the control arms were marked "928 Inc." in paint marker - Maybe they came from 928 intl? Not really sure, but everything is tight and all of the bushings are in good shape.

I would've driven the car home tonight but it appears that one of the brittle transmission cooler hoses at the transmission couldn't stand being removed and it sprung a leak. I did some research and it appears that the hose is 3/8". Is this correct? I want to be sure to buy the correct size hydraulic hose.

Jonah,

If you are speaking of the snap ring on the end of the TT, the snap ring and the spacers are what keep the 83 and older cars from having Thrust Bearing Failure. This method was done away with after the 83 model year, but I will tell you that the Stepson (84 Euro) still has the snap ring and spacers.

I believe the AT cars had 2 TT bearings from the factory and the manual cars had 3.

I'm sure that there is a metric size, but 3/8" could be usable.

Thanks! I used 3/8 and it fit very snug. Drove it home and all seems well.

The trans cooler hoses at the transmission were extremely brittle. I grabbed one of the ends and just barely touching it caused the hose to snap in two. Glad I got them replaced before they blew and sprayed hot ATF on the exhaust.