1990 928 GT newby Questions (long)

[Bimmermeister]

I've located at 1990 928 GT (only avail. with 5 speed) in Colorado Springs where I live. I realize that this model is relatively rare and am interested, but it does have some real and potentional issues. VIN is WPOJB0920LS860517. It is white with Saddle interior.

I've looked it over twice now, once with a more knowledgable friend. We both agree that the body and paint appears original and very good with light oxidation and dirt except for damage to the drivers door edge. It appears that the door edge hit an obstruction while backing up. Glass and rubber trim is very good except for half dollar sized impact crack on windshield.

Also, no information is available about the car, last owner is said to be "out of the country". Dealer says it has sat somewhere for a couple of years before being flatbedded to their lot. Battery is dead and does not accept a charge. Dealer doesn't want to do anything about replacing the battery. Dealer says mileage is 65K but title says "mileage excempt". Dealer says this is because Colorado DMV considers mileage too low for year. Dealer says shift linkage is "broken or disconnected' and cannot drive.

Interior is dirty, especially drivers seat, floor and door trim panel. Rest of interior has surprisingly little wear except is dusty/dirty as if it was never cleaned in 65K miles/18 years. Brake and clutch pedals are missing rubber covers, no big dealy but curious. No dash cracks, rear cargo area and seats little to no wear.

Dealer says to have the car flatbedded to Porsche mechanic for inspection, which I heartily agree, except that they don't sound too interested in selling the car except that the price is $6500 "firm".

Okay, some questions:

1. This car has the electronic odometer display which I obviously cannot see without battery power. Is there a way that the electronic display could have been tampered with to reduce the mileage number?

2. On the manual trans linkage what could be broken that does not allow engagement?

3. Can the drivers door edge (aluminum) be repaired?

4. What would you do to check out the car? How much would you spend to getting it running before making a decision?

I see this model in the 15K to 25K price range in very good to excellent condition so the asking price even with the unknowns is appealing. I am not a stranger to aquiring "fixer uppers" and would be willing to spend twice the asking price.

I realize the car will take thousands to bring it up to spec. I know that a timing belt/tensioner/waterpump replacement should be done immediately.

Wheels lips are curbed/rashed and one is broken and one would require welding. So wheel restoration or replacement is a given.

Am I crazy to take this on for the price?

Thanks,
Mark


Photos attached:

[Landseer]

Well, the price is extremely attractive, even non-running in my opinion.

The only major question for me would be this: Did the valves crash?

Interference 32 V with a 7 foot rubber timing belt good for up to, say, 65K mi... Car has obvious lack of maintenance, so who would bet the $2000 labor / parts to have a shop replace it at its proper interval was done?

One thing you can do. Pull off the intake plastic tubes and look down into the cam cover holes with a penlight and see if there is a resiliant, intact timing belt. That would be a good sign. (they can still have jumped enough teeth, 4 or more, to have killed the motor, but its a start. Might even gently turn it over with a 27mm socket on the crank, gently, to see if the belt moves in both sides simultaneously, another good sign.

You do not want to apply the starter and spin this motor. Do not!

Best thing, pay to truck it to a shop and pay a 928 mechanic to pull the timing covers, check the timing belt and ensure it has compression. If so, 6500 is a no-brainer.

But be prepared for 3000 parts and your own labor to make it reliable, or 10,000 parts/labor at a mechanic, even if it has compression. They are very complicated (not so much as the old big bmr's, but very specialized just the same).

[Bimmermeister]

Also, no oil drips under car or visible on oil pan or transaxle. Engine oil looks clean, some oil under power steering reservoir and drain hose, but reservoir level is good. More photos attached:

[Landseer]

Well, somebody definitely abused it. But rims and tires are extremely available and inexpensive.

I think the key is the motor condition. Its so valuable that I'd be tempted to pay out of pocket to have it checked-out.

If you want more qualifed opinions, go to rennlist . com to the 928 board and ask there.

[Landseer]

The manual transmission has a linkage that is anchored behind the bell housing on top of the torque tube, plus, runs back to the transmission in the rear of the car. It is possible for the ball socket bushing to fail in the front, and the linkage is no longer anchored, so it can't be shifted.

[Landseer]

The door edge seems minor. Odd. Might have been done while arranging the car for towing.

How much to spend before deciding? Roll the dice, 3 or 4 hundred, maybe the dealer will refund it or give you a credit if you decide not to buy, since he will have critical information.

This looks abused, again, but still could warrant any enthusiast in a 200 mile radius to be on this thing instantly. Act swiftly to decide.

I work with the older cars, have never worked with electronic dash, and am outside my area of expertise on these newer cars. The engine issue is your first big question and you commitment/capability to wrench and spend much more money is your second. Good luck.

[Danglerb]

Anything under $10k is a crazy low price for a GT, so I would guess there are REAL good reasons for a dealer offering it that cheap.

1) Is it a GT or a S4 5 spd? The motor ID and trans ID should both be checked.
2) Carfax and Autocheck should be run. wp0jb0920ls860517 is not a correct vin
3) Look the car over more carefully and make an offer, its a sure bet a dozen other people are now looking at it.

999) Only buy it if you want it for yourself, two people I know of make money buying and selling 928's and mostly that is due to repair and refurbishing resources others don't have.

[Danglerb]

Yes the odometer and electronic dash can be set to any number you want, software sold on ebay to do it.

Correct VIN is WP0JB2927LS860517 (hint found the car in less than 5 min).

[rhjames]

my observations:

65K mileage is more like 165K.---look at the shifter nob, and the door panel. See how much they are worn? Crap, maybe 265K.......

Curbed/broken wheels???? Good grief. Was this thing in a police chase?


Must have's for purchase:

CLEAN TITLE---without? walk away, run away, catch a ride on the next plane out of town away......

engine assessments---listed by Landseer. he knows the score. Minimum timing belt check with compression check.

is it a S4 (5-speed) or a true GT? a GT is a better option, but an S4 in this condition at the asking price is NO BARGAIN.



you have many things to check out before pulling the trigger on this one.......








--Russ

[Danglerb]

Rlist the wise says all 90 5 spds are GT's.

Interior now that I look more I think has been painted, and has reverted to the looks like junk stage from wear.

Can't believe nobody has run carfax and autocheck, which makes me think those who have aren't talking yet.

Only thing that surprises me is that I am not really interested, mostly the distance, and the chance undisclosed problems make it a $7k parts car.

[Landseer]

Somebody on renn stated they knew the car and indicated it had far more miles, for what its worth.

[Blau 5speed]

I agree with the previous posters... the wear and tear indicators say way more mileage, plus some neglect and abuse. Still, for that money, it almost gets my attention... as a track car.

Need to insist upon being allowed to perform a compression check, IF the belt is even intact... In any case, assume the worst with everything else in making your decision.

[Danglerb]

Dunno, this one keeps looking better and better to me.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=3970+N,+Nevada+Avenue,+Colorado+Springs,+CO&sll=37.0625,-95.676823859375&sspn=52.815136,76.288546&ie=UTF8&ll=38.8899849296875,-104.819079&spn=0.002785,0.00477&z=18&iwloc=addr&layer=c&cbll=38.89083,-104.818992&panoid=vs0RaoMcgX1gQhYUNOplwg&cbp=12,295.4632677748623,,0,5

[SolReaver]

Yea, Bimmermeister. Posts the same thread on Pelican and RL as a new user and advertises this wreck for 6500 Firm. I am calling shenanigans on hi/her/it.

ADMIN!!! Please escort this individual to the door.

Parts car/ Project car for 6500? This is some Dealer who spent too much for a Porsche at auction and thinks they have a golden nugget. They are watching the thread to see if they can land a sucker. It doesn't leak. WOW! It probably bled out already.

The man on RL said the car was shady and a wreck without documentation years ago! Does anyone think it has gotten better since then?

As to 928 Prices, 928's are too cheap AND too expensive. The problem is that people see the high ticket, sweet cars and think that they are all worth that much. Or conversely, people see a wreck for 2K and think a sweet, straight 928 is too expensive. Bad cars bring down the good cars and good cars bring up the bad cars in the minds of the ignorant AND greedy. The price of a 928 really depends on how much documented maintenance was done and how well the car was kept. Add in such tiny factors as..oh..current registration, running v. not running (if it can't drive 100 miles under it's own power without opening the hood It aint a running car). The problem is that speculators do not know the spread and get greedy. This car is firmly in the parts/project category until it runs and drives around. Lord knows how much time and money THAT will take. As such, 500 should be the community agreed upon price. We as the consumers have the ability to shape the price. We have interest in this car on both forums. Fine. I just ask that nobody pay a dime over parts value.


Oh, and over on RL I met this cute chick, I think she likes me..
her name is sooner girl (can't imagine why) and I think she fixes Porsches!

[Landseer]

?

All the man did was ask for some opinions legitimately.

[SolReaver]

Yea, OK, Just my useless opinion here. I get mad because these poor cars are passed around and nobody fixes em. I haven't been looking long and I am already getting to know a few of these lawn ornaments on sight. anybody that watches the lists for a bit knows what I am talking about. COs trying to get more than the car is worth and some poor starry eyed dreamer might gets the shaft. Until recently, that poor starry eyed dreamer could have been me. That is why this forum and others like it are important. It allows people to get the feedback they need to make informed decisions as to how much it is worth.

This car is obviously beyond the skill level of the CO and after a few years of lot rot setting in.....well you know. Until Bummermeiser chimes back in I am thinking he is the dealer looking for some free advertising. His story doesn't make sense and there is no follow through. Besides, it reads like a commercial.

[Danglerb]

Sooner girl is hot, we can all agree on that. Sooner girl is also the reason all Rlist avatar images have been restricted to "family" ratings.

Location is the only reason so far for this GT not selling. $1200 transport and no eyes on the scene to verify 5 minutes of info. Motor ID and Trans ID, is the belt tracking on the cam gears OK, is the belt OK, check oil on a piece of cardboard, verify clear title, write the man a check.

The rules for a GT are different from an OB, especially a pre 80. The newer the model, the more parts have value, and the higher the value. The brain out of an OB never goes bad, and doesn't work in newer cars, so it has almost no value, maybe $50. The brain out of a GT is an easy and quick $500 as long as it works. Same story for maybe a dozen or more key parts, OB value zip, GT value $500 to $1000 or more. The tranny doesn't even need to WORK, just not be swapped from another year or have something major broken like a gear to be worth $2k+.

Half the reason this car hasn't sold is that most of us, myself included think deals are already in progress and its too late to arrange an inspection etc.

The other half of the reason is that many of us assume others have jumped on this, inspected and found some serious deal killer problems since it still hasn't sold.

[SolReaver]

OK then. It is a 6500 parts/project car... Hard to believe you can get that much in parts for it. But if you say so.....hmmmm.....Nah, way too rich for my blood. This thing would eat me and my wallet for breakfast. I will leave it for someone else. Good luck to whoever gets it. I get a bad vibe from it. Besides, It would be rude to muscle in on anthers find.

BTW, I think Sooner girl is very family oriented. She makes me think of settling down and having kids.

[Danglerb]

The catch is that any old 928 is going to end up costing $15k to $25k before paint to fix up nice, with no more than about a $5k spread between an 80 and a 90, much of the stuff to replace is the same and some things actually cheaper for the newer models. When you are all done and the car is in first class shape the 80 is worth about $5k and the 90 GT more like $15k.

When you first get into 928's its hard to imagine how expensive to fix they really are, and that is the ONLY reason the sub $2k cars ever get sold, people don't know what it will cost to fix them. Availability of a few cheaper parts gives the illusion that expensive Porsche only parts can be avoided, or worked around, but it just aint so. Every time a work around part, or used part goes on the reliability is reduced until you have an eternal project car.

[low miler]

First off, thank you to the poster of the Sooner girl. Outstanding! Reminds me of an old girlfriend of mine....

Now to the car. I simply cannot and will not believe the mileage to be anywhere near accurate with just 65K on it. Even if it was owned by oil rigger, the wear to the interior is beyond 65K plain and simple.

Next, as a person who buys and sells these cars quite often, you can count on spending at least twice to three times your original estimated number. That's a guarantee! I recently purchased a '91 GT, well as recent as March 25th of last year anyway. This car your interested in made mine look like a brand new 928. I spent the next 8 months and $10,000 bringing that car up to nearly showroom, but even if I skimped on acheiving that, I would have easily spent $8,000. This GT your looking at, I would estimate will end up costing you anywhere between $10-$15K just to make it acceptable. And the anguish and aggervation involved during the whole process will simply exhaust you. When it comes to the world of 928's, your best bet is to buy the least work involved 928 you can afford out of the shoot. They're already expensive cars to maintain, and one's that start out rough, will end up breaking you.

To me, this is a car that I would pass on at any price. Your best bet is to buy a well documented, no stories, well sorted 928 in as close to perfect condition as you can find. If it costs you $18,000, then you'll be saving money vs. buying this $6500 GT, I can promise you that.

Best of luck with your final decision, but I strongly advise you to immediately pass on this project of all projects. But if you do end up buying it anyway, then my words will echo in your head for the next two years!

Todd