need major help again!!!!
 

ok, so i was working on this project, i took of the fuel rails and the intake manifold and the 8 pipes and had them powder coated. i got them back today and spent several hours putting them back on. when everything was back together, it looked beautiful...:) but when i tried to start her up, it didnt work... its getting fuel and i cam make it run if i press the gas but it wont idle. my suspision is that the timing is off now. when i was removing the pipes, i loosened the bolt that makes the distributer slide back and forth and i slid it out of the way. i did not remove it or take it apart. just slid it toward the front of the car. i moved it around quite a bit to try to find the right spot, im guessing this might adjust the timing? it always turns over and tries to start but after the first chug, just dies. i move it around a bit and get a double chug then it dies. is there a secret or tool used to adjust timing correctly? or is it just move it around till it works? thanks for the help and advice


michael

You need to borrow or buy a timing light. Here is how you adjust.

Right out of the factory manual

ADJUSTING IGNITION TIMING. - From 1980” Model
1. Run engine to operaring temperarure (oil temperature
abour 80 to 90’ C/176 IO 194’ F).

2. Connect engine tester. (timing light) positive terminal for
connection of testing equipment is located in
engine compartment. (Jump Post)

3. Connect timing light to ignition cable of
cylinder 1.

4. Pull off both vacuum hoses at distributor.

5. Adjust ignition timing to 23’ before TDC at
an engine speed of 3000 RPM.
Loosen and turm distributor to change ignition
timing.

6. Attach vacuum hoses again



I think I read somewhere that you want to make sure you don't exceed 34 degrees of advance at 6000 with the hoses connected but I can't find it in the book.

P.S. Unless you really know what you are listening for you should never adjust timing wihtout a light.

There are pictures in the book. Have you downloaded them yet?

where can i download the manuals from? and im pretty confused at the whole starting position thing. what needs to be at 23' and how can it be there at 3000 rpm if the engine wont run? can you explain a little bit further please. timing and electrical is not my area of expertise. i have access to a timing light so that shouldnt be a problem, ive never used one before, should i defenitly get someone to help me? my best frineds dad is a really good mechanic for honda, i know he knows a lot about timing and such so ill probably ask him but if its something that shoud be easy to do in 30 minutes or something then ill just do it.

thanks again for the help

michael

Have you taken a pic of your engine bay, ever? If so, look at that pic and adjust the distributor accordingly. That should get you close enough to get it running. Then you can use a timing light.

Also, did you take any of thevacuum lines loose? Maybe by mistake? That may be your problem. A big vacuum leak will cause major problems getting the car to run when cold.

yes i did, i has severl pics, idk if any of them show the distributor close enough to find a good starting location, and yes i did, i replaced all of the vacuume lines with new blue silicone lines. ill check again and make sure none of them are unplugged. i got the car to run but i had to keep the rpms up, it would die at idle. if its just barely out of time, it should still idle right?

ok, i talked to some people about the timing light and stuff, i understand how to use it now, but i still dont understand the thing about 3000 rpm. does it have to be at that speed to check the timing or what?

You check it with the vacuum advance unplugged and capped. Then you rev the engine to 3000 RPM to check the centrifugal advance.

I'd bet money that your problem is a vacuum line being loose or routed wrong. Will the car idle once its warmed up fully?

Just so you know baller yes, I slight move of the dizzy toward the retard side can make your car not idle. Just depends on what your definition of slight is> :) Just like the factory manual says you check timing with the engine at 3000 rpm set to 23degrees of advance. If you have a mechanic buddy buy a 6 pack of beer and invite him over. It takes about 5 minutes to do and you only need to see it once. It is pretty important to have your timing correct. It's worth the beer and you can even help drink some of them. :)

Like Fabio said.... Make sure you didn't mess something up in the vacuume system. Full routing diagram in the factory manual.

Baller, Send me an email. I will email you some pics and more info that will help you.

vdubr@msn.com

im not sure, i didnt want to run it very long if something wasnt right so i dont know. i will defentily check all of my vacuume lines first, then time the distributer at 3000 rpm to 23 degrees. and vdubr928, thanks for the timing pics and info, ill send you an email right now. i have vacuume line diagrams in my owners manual, on the underside of the hood, and in the parts manual here on pelicanparts. i dont have a factory manual. can you also tell me what degree it is supposed to be on at idle? i know 23 degrees when the distibuter weights are in the out position but what about at idle so i can check it there too just for a double check? i have a good friend whose dad is a mechanic and has a timing light, i would buy him a 6 pack but im only 20 :( haha and i dont think he drinks.

thank you all for your help

Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. Wrong vac line routing or disconnected somewhere.

ok, thanks guys, ill give it a double check tonight when i get home and see what i see. ill make sure all the clamps are good and tight, check the vacuume line diagrams and routes, make sure none of them have a loose end, and try to start her up again. thank you all for the help.

ok, so major help needed... i figured out the problem, it was a vacuum line, i got it to run good but it had real black smoke. then we let it run for a bit then shut it off and realized i forgot to put the air box on. so i put it on and when i tried to start it again, it did the same as before. one chug then dies. i checked the vacuum lines again and they are as i left them, none were unplugged or anything. so im confused. what could be causing the black smoke? and why did it just run but when its warm and i hooked up the mass air flow sensor it wont start? i didnt get to the timing yet.

The Air Box is what has the Air Filter in it, correct? If so, it doesn't matter whether it's on or off as far as how it runs. Was it constant black smoke? How long did you let it run? When you say it ran good, did it sound like it was missing? Any engine noise (ticking, clanking)? I believe black smoke is burning oil. That could be rings? Probably Russ can confirm this as he had bad rings in his Euro. Maybe post video on Youtube and post the link.

well the last time it ran a couple weeks ago there was no smoke. could the smoke be possible debris falling into the valve ports when i had the pipes off? it ran good meaning i started it and it sounded normal, then when i rotated the distributor i could hear it change but i didnt know for good or bad. then i put the airbox on, yes the part that hold the airfilter and attached to the mass airflow sensor, the car was a little warm, not all the way warmed up, it ran for about 5 minutes, it left a black spot on the ground from the exhaust. it never burned oil before, idk how changing the vacuum lines and painting the pipes and intake manifold would make it burn oil. im thinking it was probably either debris or some of the powder coating on the inside of the manifold or pipes that when down in to the cylinders and burned black. yes the smoke was consistant but kinda puffy like exhaust normally is. when it didnt want to start, i got a backfire once.

oh, aand i would post a video except i cant get it to run like that again. ill try again tomorrow.

black smoke, chugging along and barely running points to excessive fuel.

question-does your distributor have two vacuum fittings? this makes a difference as one of them retards the timing, one advances the timing.

start over----

Timing:

when timing the engine, you can do this the old skool way, or with a timing light. I prefer old skool, but I'll give it to you both ways--with timing light and without.

remove spark plug #1, put your finger over the hole and bump engine until the compression blows your finger off the whole. stop. this will put the #1 piston at top dead center.

remove distributor cap and see where the rotor is pointing, trace plug cable #1 and adjust rotor/distributor to point at cable #1, reinstall cap and you will be close.

all vacuum lines to distributor should be plugged at this point, if you are going to use the timing light. set timing at 10 degrees advance AT IDLE. reconnect vacuum lines and you should end up with about 36 degrees total advance when you bring the engine up to 3000 RPMs. it will advance this much with centrifugal and vacuum advances in play.

If not using a timing light (old skool), connect vacuum lines properly (advance needs to be to throttle vacuum, retard needs to be to manifold vacuum). Bring engine up to 3000 RPMs (hold throttle steady) and rotate distributor back and forth slowly while listening for the highest engine speed (go one way--retard--and the engine Rs will drop. go the other way--advance--and the engine will speed up to a point then start to drop off. back up at this point). Timing now should be at maximum advance at 3000 RPMs, right where it should be.

a word of caution:

running the advance up like I do may cause detonation with low octane gas. this will break rings and pistons on the older 928 engines, as did with mine. you may want to back off the timing (retard) a little to prevent this.

once you have this completed, you can then move on to other things like why the MAF is or is not operating properly, etc......

running without the air filter (OK), and running with the filter (kills the engine) tells me you do not have enough air going into the engine, or not enough timing advance. or both.

just don't do a bunch of alterations at once. you might be blaming one adjustment for a problem and it may not have anything to do with it.

hope this helps---

--Russ

Black somke is usually fuel (rich) problem. Blue is usually oil. Set your timing after you double check all your vacuume lines. Then drive the car a few miles. Your computer is still learning your mixture settings. If that doesn't fix let us know. :)

Ah sorry, not up on the EFI stuff. Mine is CIS so I don't have a MAF. I also didn't know this was a running car beforehand. Hmmm, all this from just getting Fuel Rails and Spider Powdercoated doesn't seem right. Unless you either bumped something else in the R&R. Backfire sounds like timing. Mine did that when timing was off. Are you sure when you removed that distributor bolt, it didn't ride up and move a gear tooth or 2. I would verify all your timing marks are lining up as well as your Distributor Rotor.