WTB - (Wanted to buy) M12 Engine

[uBoat Commander]

Wanted To bUY - 928 m12 ENGINE - Euro/ROW engine - Euro S model, 80-83 I believe - True 300+ HP, best engine made for the 928 in my opinion. Will pay finders fee. Complete, not complete, running, not running, no matter

[928Shane]

928 Motorsports - Porsche® 928 Used Parts - Used M28/12 300HP 4.7L Engine Complete - Porsche® 928 World record Holder 216.63537 mph

[SanDiego928]

Wow, 33 minutes later and there is an answer to your exact question.

[uBoat Commander]

$3600 - yowsa

I'm goint to look into gettting a few from Germany if anyone wants in?

[Dadddio]

Is this one?
No affiliation.

1979 4.5 liter v8 Porsche motor

[uBoat Commander]

Originally Posted by Dadddio

Is this one?
No affiliation.

1979 4.5 liter v8 Porsche motor

Nope - M12 is the Rest-Of-World 4.7 liter producing 300HP. Best all-around 928 engine made in my opinion

[DougM]

Porsche-there Is No Substitute 928 Black Euro
Porsche 928 S

[uBoat Commander]

Originally Posted by DougM

Porsche-there Is No Substitute 928 Black Euro
Porsche 928 S

1st link doesn't work, second link is exactly what I am looking for. In Nevada though (I'm in PA), need to see if I can get a better price & cheap shipping.

Thank you - I'll advise

[Danglerb]

Cost of shipping a whole motor created the Euro hybrid. Initially all the Euro motors were pretty much outside the US so shipping was very costly. When the US 85/86 models crashed or lost a timing belt, that created a supply of good short blocks that could be mated with the Euro heads and top end with good results. The 32v pistons need to be fly cut for 16v, but its otherwise a simple bolt up with slightly higher than Euro final compression ratio and 5.0L. Results are typically better than increase in size suggests, maybe due to less shrouding of the intake valve with the larger 100mm bore.

This is a common motor now in many 16v track cars, and is visually except for the numbers, the same as stock. Due to some cheaper parts cost for 100mm this is the all around value winner.

I've two of them planned, one a stock build, one bored to 104mm using 968 pistons and a hotter than Euro S cam grind. Target is 350 rwhp.

[DougM]

really cheap
Porsche 928 project car or parts

[DougM]

here is that original one that was deleted from CL
Porsche-there Is No Substitute 928 Black Euro

[Danglerb]

Originally Posted by DougM

really cheap
Porsche 928 project car or parts

Be a surprise if that is an S and not the Euro 4.5L non S.

[therevday]

Its a shame about shipping or you could have bought mine. On UK ebay right now! Good car but a massive unusual parts supply

[Yellowb1rd]

Hate to burst the 'ol bubble, BUT...

Having owned both the 16V Euro motor, and the 32V 4 cam motor, the Euro is NOT the best motor PORSCHE ever made. The 32V is a natural progression of technology, from a well-respected sports car manufacturer, which probably explains why the final years weren't offered in the 16V versions (Euro or no). BTW, the Euro HP ratings are measured differently (which is why they seem to produce more HP), so it's NOT a TRUE 300+HP as you claim. Additionally, they are no faster than the 32V versions. Of note, the Euro has the interference design (unlike the non-euro 16V), so changing that timing belt on a Euro is just as critical as it is on the 32V, but without any additional performance (being a lower tech motor). Do the research, and I think you'll be shocked. I was unimpressed with Euro 928 performance...

I think you'll find if you dyno a Euro car, you'll be hard pressed to see much more than 220HP at the tire stock, and that is being generous. If anyone has true dyno numbers from a bone STOCK Euro 928 (that means no headers, cat delete, or mods whatsoever) that exceeds 220HP at the TIRE, I'd love to see them. No cheating, because you can significantly modify any motor (including the 32V) if you throw money at it. I doubt anyone will be able to. Perception of HP doesn't always equal REALITY of HP.

[Danglerb]

Air flow theory gives a 5% hp advantage to 4v over 2v, but few production cars optimized 4v heads for HP, usually targeting low end torque with modest hp gains.

Hence the dilemma, stock each has some advantages, with the edge going to 4v, but do any mods and the cost is close to double for a 4v vs 2v for at best 5% at the top end. Performance per $ and 16v is a clear winner, cheaper to buy, cheaper to hot rod, cheaper to fix.

Lots of dyno numbers floating around, Euro S with cats is around 245 rwhp, which is very close to a 85/86 32v, and maybe 15 rwhp less than a S4. replace the Euro S stock iron manifolds with US 85/86 which are stepped headers like the S4 uses but with brackets that fit the 16v and pick up maybe 10 of those 15 RWHP, plus the early cars are about 200 lbs less.

More important I think is to look at what your target HP is, and what your budget is. I don't see a cheap path to 325 to 350 rwhp other than 16v. Goals of over 400 rwhp and it shifts back to 32v.

[Yellowb1rd]

Hey Dang... Can you provide some links to official dyno numbers anywhere on the internet for STOCK Euro 928s? Since there are supposedly so many, four or five dyno charts from different 928 Euro cars should establish a solid baseline.

Also, depends on the mods, and NO mods for the 928 are what I consider reasonable (16 or 32V). Priced out, cat delete - similar cost; full exhaust -similar cost; pulleys- similar cost; supercharger - a few hundred bucks cheaper for the 16V than the 32V, but not as much CLAIMED HP output. etc etc.... When it comes to supercharging, I question whether the 16V can keep up with the gains of a 32V motor.

Need hard numbers to back those claims up. Lots of theories out there, and info supposedly all over the internet, but not easy to find. Where are these elusive dyno numbers for these cars (again, bone stock)? Modified, all bets are off for BOTH engines....

Also would love to see info backing up claims that similar mods on 16V motor exceed 32V motor. Dyno charts there as well. No claims, or theories. Just facts.

Claiming that a 16V motor is the best motor Porsche ever made is an opinion, and certainly should not be discounted, because we all have them, but facts are facts.

The following link has some theories contrary to your explanation, but again, there is no hard evidence offered there either...

16V vs 32V Engines suitability for tuning? - Rennlist Discussion Forums

[Landseer]

FWIW, 16V Euro can be sharktuned with the properly appointed 85 brain. Mine has one installed, just haven't done it yet.
I also have 85 timing gears adapted to the car (adjustable), and the proper Porken 16Vr tool to adjust them.
And an adjustable fuel regulator. And 85/6 manifold pipes. But reality is, the car has over 200K miles, has some oil leaking by the rings, and should never be thrashed. So it won't be.

I really like the simplicity and access of the 16V. For my purposes of enjoying the marque, I'd choose any 16V 928 engine before buying another 32V. Obviously, with a statement like that, max power in a 928 isn't important to my needs. To others it is apparently very important.

[uBoat Commander]

The 16V EURO /ROW engines of the early 80s were the last 928 engines produced that had performance in mind. EVERY engine produced for the USA, and every engine produced after 1982 had emissions as the primary goal, and performance at a distant second.

This is not an opinion, this is a fact - compression reduced to 8.5:1, exceptionally mild camshaft profile. Take any 32V engine produced for the 928, and all were hobbled with lousy camshaft profile, electronic injection based on emissions, and weak compression.

The later 32V engines would be the best if they did not have such anemic camshafts and barely any compression. I would love to see what a 32 valve would do with good camshats and twin turbos.

BTW - Real horsepower figures announced by Porsche (and all other manufacturers) are at the crank, not at the rear wheels. Rear Wheel dynos are for those that don't want to put the engine on a real dyno, and were not used in the early 80s. MANY writeups out there regarding how the 16V Euro was listed at 300HP, but actually produced 315+

Again, as the last real performance 928 engine made was the early 80s 16V EURO, I stand by my statements.

[Landseer]

Do you have the tech spec manuals that show these details for each of the models you reference?
Because you are making some statements that seem in conflict with the technical data, ie, lift, compression...

[Danglerb]

Originally Posted by Yellowb1rd

Hey Dang... Can you provide some links to official dyno numbers anywhere on the internet for STOCK Euro 928s? Since there are supposedly so many, four or five dyno charts from different 928 Euro cars should establish a solid baseline.

Also, depends on the mods, and NO mods for the 928 are what I consider reasonable (16 or 32V). Priced out, cat delete - similar cost; full exhaust -similar cost; pulleys- similar cost; supercharger - a few hundred bucks cheaper for the 16V than the 32V, but not as much CLAIMED HP output. etc etc.... When it comes to supercharging, I question whether the 16V can keep up with the gains of a 32V motor.

Need hard numbers to back those claims up. Lots of theories out there, and info supposedly all over the internet, but not easy to find. Where are these elusive dyno numbers for these cars (again, bone stock)? Modified, all bets are off for BOTH engines....

Also would love to see info backing up claims that similar mods on 16V motor exceed 32V motor. Dyno charts there as well. No claims, or theories. Just facts.

Claiming that a 16V motor is the best motor Porsche ever made is an opinion, and certainly should not be discounted, because we all have them, but facts are facts.

The following link has some theories contrary to your explanation, but again, there is no hard evidence offered there either...

16V vs 32V Engines suitability for tuning? - Rennlist Discussion Forums

I don't trust dyno numbers, but feel free to search for them. I could just tell you stuff, but I think that spoils the adventure of owning a 928. What speaks best is what I am doing for myself, and that is a couple of 16v motors, both will be based on a 85/86 US short blocks with Euro S top ends. One close to stock, one with a hotter than Euro S cam and a bored and possibly stroked block.

Initially I am using modified US 85/86 brains with custom chips, but next step is a sharktune or more, and next after that "maybe" is to adapt an S4 brain or at least maybe the ignition brain with knock detection and retard circuits. I tend to stick to Euro S 84/86 because the intakes etc. are already setup for LH injection and conversion to US brains.