How can I do datalogging of Ignition tming on an 87 Turbo

[johntorg]

I am in the process of buying a 1987 944 Turbo and would like to know how I can do datalogging of the ignition timing.

I have completed several VW 1.8T 20V big turbo projects and used Vag-Com for this function. Of course that's using OBDII which provides the Ignition timing to the Vag-Com.

I will probably be installing a Vitesse MAF setup and would like to fine tune it with the Perfect Power SMT6. The SMT6 will log the amount of change it makes to ignition timing, but as far as I can see, not the actual timing itself. I also have an LM-1 Broad band that can log the AFR, but i don't believe it can log ignition timing.

Thanks in advance for your help.

[ae1969]

I think you are out of luck on this one.

Thats one of the problems with 20+ year old motronics.

[johntorg]

I found this on the on the Vitesse site, but got an e-mail from John saying they don't sell it.
MoMonitor

Does anyone know about this? Tuning without knowing the actual ignition timing sounds a little scary. Are there any other tools like this around.

I may be paranoid but I just installed a highly recommended chip in a VW 20V turbo and found out that the timing is about 15 degrees too far advanced. While this may be caused by differences in the MAF or TPS at least I know about it and won't push the car until its remapped.

[IanS]

As an owner of a 1.8T and a 951, it appears to be a whole different world of tuning. Unless you're going to a full standalone, like the TEC3 or Megasquirt, you won't get exact timing numbers.

Even though these cars have knock sensors, they appear to only be used to severely reduce boost, not reduce timing as the 1.8T does.

The 8:1 compression gives a lot more tuning leeway, but I can imagine you could gain a lot of power with modern ignition, sensors, fuel injection, and engine management.

[johntorg]

You're right. The 1.8T runs around 10 to 1 compression and can make about 450 HP on a chip. Think of what the 2.5 liter engine could do with modern electronics and higher compression.

The knock sensors being used to pull boost would seem to mean that if you go with a MBC you have no knock protection. Not so sure I'm happy about that.

I have a Perfect Power PRS8 standalone, for another project, but I guess I could use it if the chip solution doesn't work out.

[IanS]

I just read on rennlist that the KLR does pull up to 6 degrees of timing before pulling boost. Sorry for the wrong information before. I'd just heard a lot about how installing a MBC or EBC removed your knock protection, but apparently not all of it?

It would be good to know when you're getting retard, though. If I was getting 3 to 6 degrees, I'd like to be able to pull back the boost a bit.

[gt37vgt]

keep lookin we will find a way i log everthing ecept ignition on a 60 dollar vellman pc logger i think the vellman pc scope would be able to give ingnigtion timing by logging reference and trigger signal on the one graph

[IanS]

Slightly OT: Are you running at gt37vgt turbo on your 944?

[gt37vgt]

was only a matter of time til some one asked . it's in the pipline by the compressor maps it should be right on the money it will produce 55lbs of air (500hp) from 15 to 35 psi
i have the huffer the squirters the 3.0 bottom end 4 inch pipe AFC a local guy to custom burn chips a 4 channel pc logger
worked out how to control the VGT.
should be able to sort it out within the next 6 months
hey why the tt wipers? as my wipers just broke
dont worry i'l be back bragging of the low cost and big power out put later

[IanS]

Sounds like a great project. How are you physically installing the turbo? Does it have a K26 exhaust housing or are you doing some custom work?

The TT wipers are an effort to upgrade our cars to the newer bosch wiper style most european cars have. They look a bit cleaner and they're lower profile. I posted a picture of them on a Rennlist in the 944 turbo boards.

[gt37vgt]

no its the big varable A/R rear housing i will fabricate the crossover dump pipe maybe engine mount lift th inlet manifold on spacers or make that as well

[JustinL]

It could be possible to log the timing, but you would need a reference signal. it's easy enough to log the coil wire, but you would need to interpret the speed and reference sensors to have an idea of what position the engine was in when it fired.

If you logged the reference sensor you could just count the flywheel teeth manually with excel and figure out when it sparked. The tricky part of course is finding some way to get all the values into an interpretable format.

[gt37vgt]

vellman pc scope log the trigger signal (NEG coil) and crank refrence signal at the same time and just nut out the time difference will give you ignition timing ,
hey justin lets talk
megasquirt i believe its fuel only at this stage ??
you went for front mounted trigger ??
i was told the ms1v3 is a better unit due to better software ??
i will do a search again on this forum

[nize]

you can do all of the above and more with a plug-and-play solution, but it will cost you;
http://tinyurl.com/jx5ew

[gt37vgt]

scoff its about the price of an autronic or even motec haltec and autronic takes them to school.
i'm from australia as the wolf is and i know all about them they are used as the control ecu in the 944 challenge but they are not exactly plugin a trigger is mounted on the cam .
just picked up a simillar compeditors ecu for about 250 second hand that is a bottom end ecu here in oz
any how i take great pride in being a tin arse other wise lisdsey racing have great stuff

[nize]

gt37vgt; can you provide more info on the second hand ecu and the competing ecu's ? are they available in the states ?

i think the biggest benefit of the wolf system is that it uses the stock wiring harness, so all you do is disconnect the stock dme/klr box, and plug the wolf in. no need to solder or mess with wires, etc.

[gt37vgt]

well the main copadibility issue is to the crank trigger the wolf here in australia plug in is 1050 us without the crank trigger sorted there seems very little second hand in the stattes and australians are hopless at service suppurt so sorry you probably cant be as tight and experimental as me my second hand unit is ems and just basic but cost me 200 but is as good as wolf without safeguard

so hers is my list of ecus for the 951 i would say that the wolf is perhaps the easyist if it plugs up and goes but it is worth 1100 for ecu if you spend any more i would sujjest the link from new zealand for 1800 available as plugin with anti lag self tune and knock control or the aurtronic from australia similar price and fetures .
EMS ausralia have a great ecu with antlag for 800 US not sure if they deal in the us i will ask them if you like
i dreamed of a high end computer for a while but i would prefer a basic one and save my money for a diff.
it realy shouldn't be that hard to make an adapter loom to the plug there are plenty of cheap US ecus
like SDS and megasquirt

it may pay to fit the trigger from a japcar to the front of the cam this will give you more choice in ecus

[nize]

the biggest benefit of the wolf system for the 951 are;
1) it is plug-and-play (uses the stock wiring harness, no soldering)
2) it retains the stock factory knock protection (via the safeguard unit which replaces the KLR)

in comparison, there are two guys on rennlist (in the states) who are working on installing megasquirt on their 951's, which basically involves building everything from scratch for around $100 in parts. they've been at it for over one year so far, and still have not completed it.

if you can, please provide links to the ecu's you are referring to, and especially the wolf source from australia, if it is cheaper than sourcing from the states (i'm assuming it is).

[gt37vgt]

www.efihardware.com
back soon with more

[gt37vgt]

http://www.sdsefi.com/specific.html

http://www.autronic.com/
http://www.enginemanagementsystem.com/
http://www.autopages.com.au/autopages-efi-fuel-injection.php
and as for mega squirt you can buy it built with garentee for around 300
www.haltech.com/
http://www.linkecu.com/
ther that should be enough to send you dizzy
my unit is the unit that predates the EMS stinger