Questions about a 964 C4 I just looked at

[Groesbeck Hurricane]

OK, we're still looking for the right 964. I'm not 100% convinced this is the right one, but good and bad. We are looking for a daily driver, not a garage queen. We do not expect pristine, want the best mechanicals possible:

75K miles, has been the daily driver for about 3 years, most of the miles in the last four years. Records going back 3 years. Original wheels (good to us), decent rubber, backs will need replacing at the end of summer.

Interior shows wear, lots of fading around the handbrake, tear in the drivers seat where the seat belt comes over.

Exterior paint scratches around the door handles, like someones fingernails scratched the paint, knicks in the paint/body where the driver gets in and out. Paint cleans up nicely, could use a good wax job. Touch up paint would take care of the nicks, scratches. The trunk, hood, doors appear to line up correctly, nothing is off more than about 1mm or less. No signs of being repaired after a wreck.

Needs new rear shocks and heater blower. Car starts right up, cold or warm. No fuel needed to flip right over. Top of the motor is clean, bottom has dirt. No oil drips in garage or driveway, one of two cars owned, other is a suv.

I notice that there is white smoke from the exhaust so I'm of the opinion the valve stem guides are likely shot. The valves are past due for being adjusted. No signs of an oil leak down the motor, sign that the owner spilled oil and it ran down the back of the car. No oil sling anywhere.

I believe the car was two quarts of oil low, the owner had just put in one quart, he had the bottle in the top of the trash and stated such before I ever brought it up. The owner is reaching 60 and looking to move to a "more confortable ride". I don't get any feeling of deceit on his part.

I'm not the only looker, but he stated I'm the only one interested in the mechanicals and how it runs.

What are your thoughts on the white smoke? Am I dead on with needing the valve stems guides or could this be something else? Should this be a show stopper or a discussion on price? I'm not at all upset about the interior/exterior finish as everything works. Oops, I forgot to check the horns...

I'm not dead set and the wife would be almost as happy if I bought her a new Scuby, but she really would like a 964 C4 or 95 993 C4 (but I don't think we'll spring the money for one of those...) Yep, PPI before I pull any triggers...

[Don Plumley]

What year?

White smoke is probably oil, the question is at what rate is it consuming oil? Before I wrote a check, I'd want to pull the covers and look, plus a leakdown.

Price out a top end rebuild for grins...

[911Urge]

What year and whats the asking price?

Sounds like guides but PPI should answer that. Another possibility of that smoke could be overfilling of the oil, but sounds unlikely given your description.

[Garrett]

I've got a 92 C4 for sale that's in great shape - no smoke on startup or running, 98K miles, black/black, turbo suspension, new clutch. PM me if you 're interested

Last 964 I bought (I've had 5, still own 3) that smoked out the tailpipe needed a complete rebuild (worn valve seals most likely - only exhaust guides were worn on that engine)...

[Groesbeck Hurricane]

Car is a '90 964 C4 Cab. We're not sold on Cabs but they have been among what is available. I'm staying away from cars that show signs of massive leaks, damage, etal. I've lost out on one that was already re-built and driven for two years after the rebuild (top end). I've passed on a couple with few miles after the re-build and those that are garage queens (been there, done that, have the engine re-build to prove it).

The asking price is mid 20's which the seller is willing to come down from, he knows the price is high. From general discussions, he is going to have the rear shocks replaced and the blower fan re-built or replaced as he wants those removed from pricing discussions. He claims to not have noticed the smoke or known about it. He does agree that since December his oil consumption has gone from one quart every oil change (normal) to several quarts this oil change. He is due the oil change.

Yep, overfilling the car was the first thing I was checking, but that was not the case.

I believe top end re-builds are about 4 to 6K. While your in there re-builds are 10K on up... I think yall are on the same path I am, this car needs a top end. What would a 6/10 interior/exterior car needing a top end be worth? The drive is good, tracking is good, noise level is normal, don't know if the horn works (drats forgot that), body is sound (as far as I can tell). Yep, a PPI is a MUST for any purchase.

Is this worth buying? Likely. At what price? I'm thinking this is a 16K car needing a top end. Top end already done and car driving on the road, this should be a 22K car at best. Do I seem to be on the right track???

[Don Plumley]

6/10 with solid mechanicals would be low 20's like you said. When you invest 10K in it for a new top end, it's still worth low 20's. The roll of the dice is you don't need a rebuild for 2 or so years.

If you are not absolutely sold on cabs, don't get one. Tops break, need to be replaced, kids like to cut through them with knifes, etc. Those things are totally worth it if you want top down motoring.

For me, if you are going to keep the car five years, I'd be looking for a 8 or 9/10 interior/exterior with solid mechanicals and spend 26. Torn seats, worn interiors and worn mechanicals don't do it for me.

Garrett's car sounds interesting...

[Groesbeck Hurricane]

Don,

Thanks for confirmations. I've already started a PM with Garrett. The Wife wants some kind of "air experience" but she'd be as happy with a sunroof/moonroof as a Cab. She does not really want a Targa at this stage.

10K for a top end? Hmmm, the figures I've seen are 4 to 6K. But yes, the car repaired is low 20's max.

I've noticed a large disparity between pricing on these cars and not all the ones that are asking top dollar are worth it. Most appear to be 6 or 7's.

Still, I wouldn't take 20K for mine and it's probably only worth 12K.

[bigchillcar]

david..the horns on my '90 964 C4 cab don't work either..must be an epidemic! also discovered afterwards that my a/c system has a leak in it. remember that 90-91 964's didn't come with the cylinders to head seals original..some cars leaked badly and some didn't at all. the difference probably due to differences in owners driving/maintenance. also, check for the dual-mass flywheel problem and you'd want the dual dizzy vent kit that removes ozone and protects that belt from breaking. i love my cab, but i don't have the top down every day for sure and i do have a carport to protect it on days that it rains and take the truck instead. electrical gremlins can be bothersome. i had an 'airbag warning light' that was triggered when i did a new stereo install and nothing, not even the bosch hammer could clear the code. i finally just removed the warning bulb in frustration. electrical gremlins i think can be this car's achilles heel..especially in the climate control system. my thermostat seems to be 'inconsistent'..sometimes a setting will be warm, sometimes cool. that's always fun. still, whatever comes out blows harder than anything my '74 ever did!

[gduke]

I read an article on break problems in c4 964's and a friend of mine has one w/ the break problem that takes a NASA scientist fix.

The article was in an issue of Panorama Magazine.

Consider c2's

[Groesbeck Hurricane]

Well, as the intented use of the car is an all weather beater in Kentucky, we are kind of sold on a C4 for that up hill down hill thing in the snow and ice. If the C4 does not come along, we'll buy a Subaru. Not as much fun, but....

Thoughts? Information is always good, never know who might find use of it...

[911boost]

There is a 1991 C4 sunroof coupe for sale here in town with 138K miles, that has just had a new clutch, and I belive a top end done (the dealer has the paperwork) for $19k.

Exterior has some rock chips, and the interior is probably a 6/10 like the one you are looking at. It silver ext with red interior.

Just to give you a price comparison.

Bill

[bigchillcar]

silver/red...classic porsche racing heritage colors. i looked at that color combo in a 993 cab until i decided it was a nola flood car.

[Doug751]

Here is the deal with 964's.

This car (any 964) is not a good choice to just buy and beat-on and not maintain unless you absolutely do not care, and you are only buying the car for the looks or the badge. That said, if you buy one and spend $10,000 more on repairs and upkeep right off the bat, you will have a dependable car that drives right. If you buy a ratty one, then figure maybe $15K for the car, plus the $10K for repairs and you have a ratty 964 that drives right. IF you buy a nice car, then figure $20K to high twentys, and you still pay at least $5000 or so to start to sort everything out.

Keep in mind that a valve job will be needed every 15,000 miles, and that will cost at least $1500. Save some money by doing the oil change and plugs if needed at the same time.

A Subaru is a regular car. Buy it, have no issues at all, change oil at the corner for $50 or less. No issues, better in the winter for sure than any Porsche, that is, unless you get ice tires and that will cost at least $1500 to do right with used rims and 4 tires.


A Porsche is never a wise purchase from a purely economic point of view. I love mine, I spent a fortune (on my most recent 964) to buy a perfect very low mile car, but it is a toy, not transport, and will not see the miles or wear that daily use will bring. It was still not a wise purchase, again, just a toy.

As for your car. Texas cars are going to have issues caused by heat and if a Houston car by salt and pollution. Keep an eye out for rust under the rubber seals, behind the rocker covers and headlights. Rubber seals are wasted, especially the foam around the flappers in the AC system. Look to see if small bits of black foam are spit out when the AC is on high. Also, listen for flapping or rattles when the AC is blowing. If you hear that problem, you either live with it or spend a fortune to fix it. The fan can squeak as well, which is not as easy to replace as on an older 911.

The foam around the speakers will be rotted. The insulation on top of the engine will be hard and sagging down. The hoses are likely to need a freshening.

A daily driven southern car has a much harder life than a toy owned by a Northern driver and used on nice days.

I do not mean to scare you, but I have done this before, I have bought a 964 from a guy in Houston that was inspected and looked sweet, and I paid the price to repair every issue that I meantioned above including rust, hoses, AC and also oil leaks!

Good luck.

[Groesbeck Hurricane]

Ryan,

I looked at the Louisville car, nice little car, I was scared of the money. Wanted a little in reserve for what ifs or when ifs. Rebecca was also unsure of a convertable. The extra expenses and she does not like the wind noise of our Targa with the top on. Sunroof coupe is her choice of vehicles...

Doug,

I'll agree with most of what you say. I do try and do most of my own work, when possible. Sorry about your issues with a Gulf Coast Car. My '83 had none of those. The issue with my car was that it had not been driven for three years. Different set of circumstances.

This car is for my wife to drive daily. Yep, I'll have to pull more maintenance than on a new Subaru, but she'll be happier with the car! She also lends a hand in the garage.

I expect to never buy a car for appreciation. Cars are a tool or a toy in my book. Of course, my father in law just sold his Model A-400 (# 31 I think) for a handy profit. That was a TOTAL fluke, though it is a VERY nice car!!!!

Well, having a PPI done next week. Everything comes out even, we have a deal and a new to us car. What was that saying in To Wong Fu, So long and thanks for everything! Julie Newmar? ;-)

Gotta find some blizzaks this summer...

[bigchillcar]

hi david,
yeah, i got the impression that the louisville car was going to be a nice one. if it's really nice, he probably isn't too far off on the money, but i understand you're wanting a coupe..i loved my sunroof coupe.

[Groesbeck Hurricane]

Ryan,

It was one of the nicer ones I looked at! He has receipts from the mechanic. It is a daily driver (which is what we wanted to buy) and he takes it in for regular maintenance. The owner understands the car is not a collectors car, but he has a dollar figure in mind. I did not find any rust on the car and it was clean. No signs of body work/wreck. Everything appeared to me to be straight, for what it is worth. A fairly nice stock car at the top of our budget for a used car. Cab was a drawback, having money left over for other things was another drawback. One must live within their means.

[911boost]

David, unless you are really looking for a convertible, I would shy away from one. They are louder, and will cost more to maintain. These cars are getting older and the tops motors, transmissions, etc, do wear out and they can be very expensive.

Bill

[bigchillcar]

if i don't get my a/c problem resolved soon, my cab top may be my 'a/c' for a while..

[aigel]

Let's back off here for a bit on the smoke:

- Black smoke: Fuel - runs too rich
- White smoke: Water vapor - condensation in case of a air cooled poprsche
- Blue smoke = oil

If it is definitely WHITE smoke, it is not oil. Oil burns blue.

So, when does it smoke white? When the car sat in the garage and is started cold? That likely is condensation.

That said, after reading the thread again more carefully, the oil seems to go somewhere. If it's not leaking out, it's burning ...

I'd pass on this one. Price seems real high for what it is. I second not to get a cab - especially not for a coupe price!

Cheers, George

[Groesbeck Hurricane]

George,

I agree with the smoke colours. The smoke looked blue to me, but it smoked when cold, warm, etc. The smoke was there when we were done driving. No smell, not like a smoke screen, just a little bit of smoke out the back. But you hit on my thoughts, oil has to go somewhere and I don't see signs on the ground...

Why are there so many Cabs for sale???

Ryan,

I just disconnected the A/C in my Targa. Windows down, no issues!!! ;-)