C2 vs C4 for track

[Bill Verburg]

It's great that you guys are so enamored of 964C4, more power to you, but you are in a very tiny minority

some items to consider
* item* the 964 trans is unique to that car, no other uses it, there are few to no gearing options and rebuilds are commensurately expensive due to low volume production

*item* there are 2 computer controlled slave cylinders, one for f/r torque split the other for rear left/right torque split. When the seals on the longitudinal cylinder fail(and they will) all the brake fluid goes directly into the trans case

*item* the clutch pack at the front of the trans that controls longitudinal torque is a wear item(unlike the later viscous drives) I didn't bother to look up the cost but it ain't cheap

*item* lateral and longitudinal acceleration sensors(x2) can and will fail, spring 2007 price ~$2077ea

*item* front torque tube bearings(another wear item) not available separately, torque tube cost, ~$2037+labor

enjoy you cars but in the order of desireability the 964C4 is way down the list for most people most of the time

[amr89c4]

Here was the original questiuon......I've been told that the C4 isn't the best choice for track events because of the inherent understeer. Is this true or just plain hogwash?

I tried to help the man by offering objective and honest answer based on my actual experience with the model car he inquired about. He did not ask for any subjective advice on anything else.

I'm not saying these things cannot happen or that they won't be potentially expensive if they do, but you sir, make it sound like an every day occurence which ain't so.

OP, please go buy a stock C2 because it will be track ready, will never bite you and you will never spend a dime on it. Stick me with a fork, I'm done.

[Bill Verburg]

So IYO a 964C4 doesn't inherently understeer and makes for a great first choice car for 'primary use would be autocrosses and the occassional DE event'

It's nice to see a disinterested opinion w/ no bias whatsoever

MO is that a 964C4 understeers like crazy and makes a poor A/X and mediocre de choice, given the otyher available options

+ they are potentially nightmares to modify and repair, as I said I'm very happy that there are at least a few owners that are plaeased as punch w/ their choice, but stand by my bias that you are in a teeensy minority of all the Porsche owners that use their cars primarily for A/X and de

now maybe if you wnted a wineter commuter in New enland or the Rockies I might not argue w/ you except as to the potential for nightmare wrt upkeep down the road.

and yes, 2wd will also need repairs but you won't be repairing expensive parts that aren't there and should you choose to go further down the slippery slope you can easily modify the transmission w/ different gearing

[911vet]

Bill.... Dude, chill out! These are all Porsches and they are all great cars.

Some people get on the forum and have no personal experience with a model and simply parrot what they've read.

We who appreciate the inherent merits of the C4 are not a tiny minority as you imply. And to discount the first-hand experience of an actual owner who actually tracks the car (i.e. amr89) seems a bit presumptuous.

AWD cars offer advantages (and disadvantages) on the track and AX circuit. I'm suspect all the "nightmare" failures and upgrades you refer to are as much myth as reality.

People ask questions here because they want opinions and, hey, that's what they get!

[Luke Pennington]

Bill, do you know personally of cars that have had these expensive repairs and details of their account?

[amr89c4]

Originally Posted by Luke Pennington

Bill, do you know personally of cars that have had these expensive repairs and details of their account?

What Luke said.

Btw, Bill, you never did reply as to how many of these horrific cars you have owned or tracked.

I rest.

[Luke Pennington]

Bill, I am not trying to call you out. I'm just curious of actual cases rather than derived conclusions based upon systems engineering.

[Bill Verburg]

I don't make this stuff up, it looks like the 3 of you are happy, great! nevertheless C4 is not a first choice for 99.99% of all users for any sort of a/x or track day driving, except in the snow or rain.

If the items I mentioned haven't caused issues yet, that doesn't mean that they won't down the road.

Be realistic about your cars guys

[amr89c4]

I guess after 3-4 requests to tell us, its obvious you have no personal ownership experience with a C4.

None of us ever said a 4 was the first choice for a track car. You implied we did and then just started beating the car up needlessly and you got a reaction from those that have not experienced all those problems, real or potential, you keep ranting about. Does it not matter that we haven't. And if we do, its fair to say we bought the car with the knowledge of its nature and risks.

And where are all those poor C4 owners that have had all these problems? Why aren't they lining up to tell their tales of woe?

Hell everything breaks sooner or later. Who said owning any old Porsches was a cheap proposition in the first place.

This is ridiculous.

[rainer11]

Since I finally found time to register and have watched this post grow, my C4 understeers more than a C2 but that's to be expected. As for 'competitiveness' of the car, it is. I can drive a C2 slightly quicker around the track, but that's to be expected. As for reliability (knock on wood) for the 9 years this car has been on the track club racing and DE's, the AWD components remain the original components. The front dif has a minor leak, but it's had that for 3 years and hasn't been an issue. So short of a few drops of whatever fluid that is around the middle of the car after each run, it remains competitive in the dry and phenominal in the rain with rains on.

Chris.