C2 vs C4 for track

[Miro]

Hello All,

I'm planning on getting a 964 to satisfy my Porsche needs! My primary use would be autocrosses and the occassional DE event. I've been told that the C4 isn't the best choice for track events because of the inherent understeer. Is this true or just plain hogwash?

TIA!

[Don Plumley]

It is heavier, complex and can become a very, very expensive thing to fix.

I would avoid it on the track. You will not find a competitive Porsche track car with AWD.

A 964 is a great track platform. Especially for AX, it would benefit from a weight loss program.

However, the AC is not a large weight penalty, then you can drive home from the track in air conditioned comfort.

[941MXVET]

I really happy with our C2.

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by don plumley

it is heavier, complex and can become a very, very expensive thing to fix.

I would avoid it on the track. You will not find a competitive porsche track car with awd.

A 964 is a great track platform. Especially for ax, it would benefit from a weight loss program.

However, the ac is not a large weight penalty, then you can drive home from the track in air conditioned comfort.

+1

[38D]

Originally Posted by Don Plumley

You will not find a competitive Porsche track car with AWD.

While I will agree that a C2 is a better track/AX weapon, the above is hogwash. Chris Reinsborough is very successful in his C4 in PCA E class.

http://rennpoints.com/driverhistory/?racer=358

[Don Plumley]

Originally Posted by 38D

While I will agree that a C2 is a better track/AX weapon, the above is hogwash. Chris Reinsborough is very successful in his C4 in PCA E class.

http://rennpoints.com/driverhistory/?racer=358

Perhaps it was hyperbole, but I was thinking about ALMS/Grand Am. The factory does not make AWD race cars. On the "consumer" side, the GT2 is an interesting AWD car, but the GT3 is the track weapon of choice. Then of course there is the RSR...

[Chuck Grieb]

Isn't the GT2 rear wheel drive?

[Don Plumley]

Originally Posted by Chuck Grieb

Isn't the GT2 rear wheel drive?

Somewhere in my pea brain I know the GT2 is based on the Turbo and I thought I recalled it was an AWD car to help put the HP on to the tarmac. I am incorrect, Chuck is correct, the GT2 is RWD. Batting 1.000 today aren't I?

[38D]

Originally Posted by Don Plumley

Perhaps it was hyperbole, but I was thinking about ALMS/Grand Am. The factory does not make AWD race cars.

So you'd suggest basing which 20 year old car to buy based on the cars that do well in a current pro series .

The factory does not make AWD race cars because AWD is outlawed in every major series because it is such a large advantage over 2WD.

Originally Posted by Grand Am Rulebook

8-1.1 Four-wheel drive is not allowed.

[Bill Verburg]

Ok so there a a few rare individuals that are competing w/ 964C4s, they are the rare exception.

the 964 used an expensive, complicated , star wars awd arrangement, it's heavy and not easily modified, can fail in dangerous manner(all the brake fluid can be pumped into the trans) and even when it is working correctly is more appropriate for winter commutes than track use.

[deoxford]

GT2 is RWD

Go with the C2

[Miro]

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. Hope to find a nice C2 shortly!

[Oracle]

C2 rules!!

[amr89c4]

Originally Posted by Don Plumley

It is heavier, complex and can become a very, very expensive thing to fix.

I would avoid it on the track. You will not find a competitive Porsche track car with AWD.

A 964 is a great track platform. Especially for AX, it would benefit from a weight loss program.

However, the AC is not a large weight penalty, then you can drive home from the track in air conditioned comfort.

I don't race. Funny though, I DE the hell out of my C4 and it leaves nothing on the table and when its wet, its even more fun.

It is no big deal to dial out the inherent understeer with some wider front tires, heavier rear sway and a more aggressive track alignment. Hmmm, seems thats no different than what the C2 guys do, too, to get their cars around the track.

Its so neutral, that most of my instructors couldn't believe it was a 4. A couple even asked to drive it and were amazed.

Complicated, sure seems that way if you don't know anything about the systems and how they are related. The car is a little heavy, but then a lot of the newer cars are as heavy or heavier and I'm assuming we are talking DE's and not all out racing, so who cares?

I'm not sensitive, but one cannot make a blanket statement to avoid it on the track and not get called on it.

[911vet]

Originally Posted by amr89c4

I don't race. Funny though, I DE the hell out of my C4 and it leaves nothing on the table and when its wet, its even more fun.

I've been behind amr89c4 trying to catch him on the track in my RWD 3.2. There is no disadvantage to the C4 out there. It's a slightly different animal than a RWD, but then an SC is not a Carrera is not a 964 is not a 993...

There are bunch of new 997 C4S out on the track taking names and leaving others in their dust. Yep, sometimes it's the traction control, ABS, etc that lets poor drivers look good. But it's crazy to discount the C4 as a track car.

If in doubt, get behind Lynn (amr89c4) and just try to catch him! And if you're gonna wait for the AWD to have a catastrophic failure you'll be waiting a long time. It's rare.

I'm happy with my RWD 3.2 but I would snatch up a 964 C4 in a heartbeat if one came along. I'd do what was suggested and dial out the understeer with minor suspension upgrades.

Hey... a C2 or C4... both are fantastic machines. You can't really go wrong.

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by 911vet

I've been behind amr89c4 trying to catch him on the track in my RWD 3.2. There is no disadvantage to the C4 out there. It's a slightly different animal than a RWD, but then an SC is not a Carrera is not a 964 is not a 993...

There are bunch of new 997 C4S out on the track taking names and leaving others in their dust. Yep, sometimes it's the traction control, ABS, etc that lets poor drivers look good. But it's crazy to discount the C4 as a track car.

If in doubt, get behind Lynn (amr89c4) and just try to catch him! And if you're gonna wait for the AWD to have a catastrophic failure you'll be waiting a long time. It's rare.

I'm happy with my RWD 3.2 but I would snatch up a 964 C4 in a heartbeat if one came along. I'd do what was suggested and dial out the understeer with minor suspension upgrades.

Hey... a C2 or C4... both are fantastic machines. You can't really go wrong.

The 964 awd system was unique to that model. It is nothing like the awd sytem used from 993 thru the current 997. It is complicated, expensive and not easily modified. If you are happy great, but you do a diservice to the vast majority of people looking for a de car. I don't have any issue w/ the 993 up version of awd, except that it is a little heavier than 2wd it is at least natively biased to the back which makes performance driving more enjoyable/doable, but the 964 system is not performance oriented like the later systems it is more of a snow country system w/ native 50/50 bias. Yes it can alter bias based on traction to great extremes but it still can't match the way that a rear biased system can use throttle steer.

lotsa luck to the purchasers of 15 to 20 year old 964C4s

JMO

[ilko]

I had an AWD 964 C4 and now I have a RWD 964 RS America. Both are great on the track. I felt the C4 was more planted but at the end less fun. A RWD Porsche is more difficult to drive but in my opinion more rewarding.

As far as the AWD system in the 964, I loved it. Liked it much better than the viscous coupling in 993 and later cars. Failures are rare, the system was engineered with no expenses spared. It was before the the bean counters stepped in. So yes it's expensive, yes it's overengineered, but it is highly unlikely you'll ever have to replace any of the AWD components.

BTW AWD was banned from road racing due to the "unfair advantage" of the Audi quattros in the early 80's. 'Nuff said

[amr89c4]

Originally Posted by Bill Verburg

The 964 awd system was unique to that model. It is nothing like the awd sytem used from 993 thru the current 997. It is complicated, expensive and not easily modified. If you are happy great, but you do a diservice to the vast majority of people looking for a de car. I don't have any issue w/ the 993 up version of awd, except that it is a little heavier than 2wd it is at least natively biased to the back which makes performance driving more enjoyable/doable, but the 964 system is not performance oriented like the later systems it is more of a snow country system w/ native 50/50 bias. Yes it can alter bias based on traction to great extremes but it still can't match the way that a rear biased system can use throttle steer.

lotsa luck to the purchasers of 15 to 20 year old 964C4s

JMO

I'm extremely happy, thank you.

Bill, I wasn't advocating everyone run out there an grab one. I was simply telling people that the car is not that freakin complicated, is as easy to modify for great DE track performanceas a RWD, and should not be avoided as you suggest. Parts pricing isn't all that different from the newer cars either.

I will say that it would be a better car for those mechanically inclined and want to learn what makes it tick. If you can do your own work, so much the better. If you can't, then I would suggest finding a shop thats knows the older cars ia your next step before buying one,and there are plenty that do at least in my neck of the woods. As 911vet mentioned I have had no problems (just jinxed myself, I suppose) and its rare to find someone on the forum who have had real AWD failures.

At the end of the day, you takes your pick and stay in your comfort zone, but to say I did a dis service to the vast majority is BS. I specifically answered what the OP asked and reported my experience, which was vastly different from your experience (or have you any experience in running an 89 C4 anyway?) and nothing more.

[amr89c4]

Oh yeah, one more thing. You can throttle steer all you want if the car is set up correctly!

[911vet]

Originally Posted by Bill Verburg

If you are happy great, but you do a diservice to the vast majority of people looking for a de car.

I don't own a 964, but I've had the advantage of being able to drive one along with my own RWD 3.2.

I'm wondering what you disliked about the 964 C4 when you drove it? I found it to be extremely well planted and very predictable. And I've watched amr89c4 drive his at MidOhio in front and behind me. It follows nearly the same line as my RWD and it does it just as fast (faster really because it's a 3.6).

The AWD system is extremely dependable and if you do a search you will find that failures are so rare as to be questionable concern to a potential buyer.

Originally Posted by Bill Verburg

Yes it can alter bias based on traction to great extremes but it still can't match the way that a rear biased system can use throttle steer.

OK - I have to wonder how hard you drove it on the track, but this statement seems way off base. The C4 throttle steers! I watched amr89c4 throttle steer his through the Keyhole and Carousel at MidOhio 3 weeks ago. Hell, he had the car drifting and throttle steering in ways I can only dream of right now.

When you drove a C4, maybe the suspension wasn't set up correctly? Because if you couldn't throttle steer the hell out of it, something was wrong. I'm not good at throttle steering (still trying to get over the fear of spinning) and I am still learning in my RWD 3.2, but I learned in part from a C4 driver.

I, of course, have to limit my comments to personal experience. I've had the good fortune of driving a C4 and a 3.2 RWD through a lot of twisties. They are different, but as far as what is "better?" No way to answer that. Which is more fun? They both are!

It's a diservice to discount a C4 for the track. Just as it would be inappropriate to declare it "better" than a C2. But for a potential buyer, I'd encourage them to consider both. If a great C4 came along, check it out.