Which Car For HPDE

[HarryD]

First, I know this is a 911 forum but opinions wanted

I have a 1973 911T and a 2003 BMW Z4. Both are pretty much stock.

Several of the local HPDE Clubs will Let me use either car.

In the past, the 911 was my car of choice since it was my only car. I am thinking that it would be fun to drive the Z4 at one or more of the events to see how it performs.

My question. Given the 911 is significantly more valuable in $$ than the Z4, should I use the Z4 where I can and give up the fun of a low power momentum car with a great sound?

[ted]

Those both sound a little old and tired for track work.
Sell the old Z4 and DE a newer Miata.
Cheaper to maintain, about the same speed and safety.
I'd prefer something with a roof and a roll bar on track.

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by ted

Those both sound a little old and tired for track work.
Sell the old Z4 and DE a newer Miata.
Cheaper to maintain, about the same speed and safety.
I'd prefer something with a roof and a roll bar on track.

Thanks for your thoughts. I like older cars so I doubt I will sell.

Since I am not trying to win HPDE, my older cars satisfy my need for speed.

FWIW, I prefer the Z4 to the Miata for everyday driving. More power, more comfort etc.

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

A disposable Miata is a very good option. They're cheap, readily available, work well, are very fun to extract the most out of, and won't cause any real heartache if you wad them up into a little ball.

How devastated would you be if you wadded up the 911? How about the Z4? If the answer to either is "not very", then they will make fine track cars. The 911 more than the Z4, I think, but either will work pretty well.

--DD

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by Dave at Pelican Parts

A disposable Miata is a very good option. They're cheap, readily available, work well, are very fun to extract the most out of, and won't cause any real heartache if you wad them up into a little ball.

How devastated would you be if you wadded up the 911? How about the Z4? If the answer to either is "not very", then they will make fine track cars. The 911 more than the Z4, I think, but either will work pretty well.

--DD

I would be more devastated about the 911 which I have had in my care for over 20 years. However the original reason for buying it was to go to the track as well as fun touring/spirited driving.

The Z4 was originally bought to commute back and forth from work with a much higher fun quotient than the Ford Fusion (aka The Fridge). Not all the clubs I want to do HPDE are willing to let me use my stock Z4 without a roll Bar, 5/6 point harness etc. To do that, I lose the soft top and not in alignment with my plans for a DD type car.

[Gianni at Pelican Parts]

My vote would be for the Z4, granted I am a bit biased towards BMW, but it is a great deal newer so any original rubber in the bushings will most likely be fresher and you will have a good deal more power with the N52 to pull out of corners if you are new to track driving.

I definitely recommend at the very least a good inspection of all suspension comments and upgrading to some High Temp Brake Fluid and more Track focused brake pads as street compounds will fade after a few laps of heavy braking.

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by Gianni at Pelican Parts

My vote would be for the Z4, granted I am a bit biased towards BMW, but it is a great deal newer so any original rubber in the bushings will most likely be fresher and you will have a good deal more power with the N52 to pull out of corners if you are new to track driving.

I definitely recommend at the very least a good inspection of all suspension comments and upgrading to some High Temp Brake Fluid and more Track focused brake pads as street compounds will fade after a few laps of heavy braking.

Thanks for the thoughts. FWIW, my Z4 has the M54 3 liter engine.

Both these cars get regular inspections, brake fluid changed annually (ATE typ 200 for 911 and ATE SL or Pentosin LV for the Z4). While not brand new, bushings are in good shape.

The pads for my 911 work well as a combo street/AX/light track car.

The Z4 has stock pads and I will see.

I have been AX'ing the 911 for 20 years and have done about a dozen HPDE's so I have some experience and I would think my skills driving a momentum car will serve me well in the Z4.

[cajun]

I am going to give a little different advice here... I have had more fun tracking my 911 SC than the law should allow. The car is simply the most rewarding drive "when you get it right", plus, as an enthusiast, tracking an older 911 is just the best.

My advice would be to track both. Enjoy them both. As you stated, you are not looking to "win" the HPDE, so who cares about the age and speed of the car? Get some track insurance, and get out there with the 911. Those cars come alive when you really push them.

Enjoy!

[racer]

911.

[ted]

Harry are either of the cars track prepped or are they completely stock?
I'd choose the one with the most track safety equipment.
Track the one with a fire extinguisher, 5 point belts, a roll bar, track brake pads, freshest brake fluid, best tires, best condition brakes and rotors.
If they are both high mileage mostly original daily drivers then track them both.

[Cajundaddy]

Both cars would be great fun along with a C5 corvette, Miata, 90s BMW M3, 944... The list of fun cars to take to the track is long. Pick one, set it up well, and go driving.

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by ted

Harry are either of the cars track prepped or are they completely stock?
I'd choose the one with the most track safety equipment.
Track the one with a fire extinguisher, 5 point belts, a roll bar, track brake pads, freshest brake fluid, best tires, best condition brakes and rotors.
If they are both high mileage mostly original daily drivers then track them both.

As noted. They are both largely stock. Stock safety equipment.

I don’t have sticky tires for this application (I use Hoosier SMs for Autocross on the 911).

Both are well maintained.

[unclebilly]

Most club insurance won’t allow the z4 without a full cage.

The 911 is your only choice between the 2. If you can’t afford to walk away from it after a track incident, it has no place being on track.

Don’t discount the miata (like I did). I’ve now done several endurance races in them as a ringer driver and these have become my favourite track car. There is the line, and then there is the miata line...

[HarryD]

My 911 is down with a massive oil leak so I took the Z4 to the local track.

The good: More power, hence faster in the straights.

The Bad: Tons of understeer where I did not want it. E-gas did not respond the way a mechanical linkage responds (non linear). Trying to get a bit of oversteer to rotate the car in tight corners was not easy.

Overall: Fun to drive but different.

[chrismorse]

Originally Posted by unclebilly

Most club insurance won’t allow the z4 without a full cage.

The 911 is your only choice between the 2. If you can’t afford to walk away from it after a track incident, it has no place being on track.

Don’t discount the miata (like I did). I’ve now done several endurance races in them as a ringer driver and these have become my favourite track car. There is the line, and then there is the miata line...

Hi Harry,

I've appreciated your many exprienced posts and advice.

I am about to finish the restomod on my fathers 74 coupe and plan to get it to the track for DE events as soon as i can. Thunderhill is 5 hours away, so i can only afford a few events a year.

To your question, i would enter the relative safety of the event/course into the calculation as to which car to run. The riskier track, (lots of guard rails, higher number of drivers in your run group and the intensity of the event, (DE or the more intense"track Day").

Personally, i opt for the less intense DE events to just have fun. I have prepped the suspension, brakes and wheels on an old ferrari 308 tfor the track, that cost more than twice my dad's 74, when new,but i am looking forward to getting it out to thunderhill to test my upgrades and have fun. I accept that risk. Dad's car means a lot to me, I have sidelined the 308 for 10 years, while doing the restomod to dad's car.

Hope to meet you at the track,
chris

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by chrismorse

Hi Harry,

I've appreciated your many exprienced posts and advice.

I am about to finish the restomod on my fathers 74 coupe and plan to get it to the track for DE events as soon as i can. Thunderhill is 5 hours away, so i can only afford a few events a year.

To your question, i would enter the relative safety of the event/course into the calculation as to which car to run. The riskier track, (lots of guard rails, higher number of drivers in your run group and the intensity of the event, (DE or the more intense"track Day").

Personally, i opt for the less intense DE events to just have fun. I have prepped the suspension, brakes and wheels on an old ferrari 308 tfor the track, that cost more than twice my dad's 74, when new,but i am looking forward to getting it out to thunderhill to test my upgrades and have fun. I accept that risk. Dad's car means a lot to me, I have sidelined the 308 for 10 years, while doing the restomod to dad's car.

Hope to meet you at the track,
chris

Exactly. The groups I drive with are conservative and are not filled with people who are trying to “win” HPDE. My friend who instructs with these groups calls me the moving chicane since the blue and yellow flag is always waved at me!

Keep the shiny side up!

[chrismorse]

Hi Harry,
I will be right up there with you, as part of the moving chicane. I'm starting with a 74 with a rebuilt 150 hp, then warmed up a bit with a few mods while tightening up the chassis, wheels and tires.

Hope you are well,
chris

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by chrismorse

Hi Harry,
I will be right up there with you, as part of the moving chicane. I'm starting with a 74 with a rebuilt 150 hp, then warmed up a bit with a few mods while tightening up the chassis, wheels and tires.

Hope you are well,
chris

Go have fun. Remember, just about anyone who drives says that it is “more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow. “

Did a second HPDE at a new, to me, track. The 911 was not ready so it was again in the Z4. It was a lead follow instruction format. My instructor was in a Cayman GT4. He did not like the school line in a few places so we did a faster line. It was a ton of fun.

[sirdaft1]

Originally Posted by cajun

I am going to give a little different advice here... I have had more fun tracking my 911 SC than the law should allow. The car is simply the most rewarding drive "when you get it right", plus, as an enthusiast, tracking an older 911 is just the best.

My advice would be to track both. Enjoy them both. As you stated, you are not looking to "win" the HPDE, so who cares about the age and speed of the car? Get some track insurance, and get out there with the 911. Those cars come alive when you really push them.

Enjoy!

1,000% agree with this assessment.