I joined the Sand and Gravel Club today at Willow Springs

[Zeke]

I slid that sucker off into a little hill with some big rocks in the gulley next to the embankment. Knocked the front cross member all to hell but no other apparent damage of the body or chasiss. Tyson saw the problem in less than a minute and I redid the front toe by sight and went right back out.

I'm pretty sure this pic was taken just before I backed the car off the track on the COOL DOWN LAP. Go figure.



I've got some pics of Jack and Tyson that I will upload in a bit.

[Zeke]

Who is this man in Jack's BBII??


Well then, who is THIS man in Tyson's "Scrappy???"


Whoever these hombres are, they are hard to get in one frame with my poor ass little camera. I'll tell you this, whoever is in BBII gets to go bye bye. By the next lap, BBII was in front and there was no possibility to get them in the same frame. Who said "it's the driver?" It's the car.


These guys have fun.

[nostatic]

Glad you had fun Milt. I spent the whole day wishing I was up there, but budget and work (not to mention the fact i was still beat from the weekend) conspired to keep me in town.

[Zeke]

I did have fun, I think we all do unless we blow motors.

I really want to run Streets in this car. My fastest segment according to how I was albe to reel other cars in only to loose them on the long straights and some long turns, because big, fat tires are definately faster there, was 3-4-5. I love 3-4-5 even though 3 was my off. Only time Jack was behind me, I muffed 3, slid wide and didn't do my line. Next lap, Tyson came up on me in the same corner, I think. Anyway, I had my line back. I don't know if it's the best line, but it's faster than most. I do believe the shorter, tigher courses are my calling.

Remember, this is only my 2nd time ever in a real car on a track for anything but one lap. I have driven Willow countless times, so the layout is very familiar. But driving a 911 is something else altogether. I'm certainly making some beginner's mistakes.

BTW, I stopped on the way out at Mike Manning Karting on the entrance road and Mike and I chatted for quite awhile. We hadn't seen each other for 13 years. He is really a nice guy. If you ever want to investigate karting, see Mike.

[nostatic]

you went off in 3? Lucky your car didn't go home in a bucket. It looks really good in the pic in 4 though...very planted.

[Zeke]

Yeah, you're right on that. Here's the deal; I came down the front straight and got the checkered. A black Boxster with a hard top was several hundred yards back. I eased off and braked a little early and soft for 1, then went around 2 at about 500 RPM less than I had been doing. The Boxster was up on me as I accelerated gently out of 2 in toward 3. I started to brake and all I could see was the Boxster windshield. I couldn't figure out what to do. Seems like he ws going to hit me, but I should have known that he wouldn't. Nevertheless, I think I lifted off the brakes and began my turn into 3 with no gas and the back end swung around and off I went. I was slower, so that helped.

After that, whenever I saw the Box, I pulled way over, slowed down, pointed by and waited for him to clear. At one point, the black flag came out in 8, so I raised my fist and went into the hot pits as you are supposed to do. The Box went on by. The starter told me that he was shutting the track to clear a car and then changed his mind and let me go. Whether it was a black flag for me or all, it was a standing flag that I think I saw back up in 5 as well and pulling off was appropriate.

Now, as I sit here the next morning and think things over, I lost a lot of respect for amateur practice day. It was entirely my fault, I was driving the car, no one else. But the actions of some out there, like the Boxster that wanted to race the cool down lap instead of cool down, and doesn't respond to flags, plus a few other very childish actions on some people's behalf makes me think that maybe POC is the way to go. I can't imagine POC allowing clowns out there w/o some talking to. I never saw anything like this in karting.

My next outing will be the POC school. We'll see how it goes.

Edited for spelling, amateur speller here

[nostatic]

Milt, there's often some bozo out there. I remember there was a guy in a turbo Z who was butt slow in the turns and I was all over him. We'd get to the straight, he'd point me by, then floor it (I could hear the turbo spool up). Jerkoff. OTR is usually pretty good though, and POC is even better. POC really doesn't tolerate unsafe driving.

I might be at the school in September...depends if they let me instruct. I'll definitely be there for the STS the next day.

[Vipergrün]

Ok, so I know I was only in my Civic, but I had a dood in a rental mustang on my arse all the way thru 9. So much as a gentle tap would have been an OTE, scary situation in any car. Then, I had the same bozo Boxter driver on my arse while driving my buddies 911. If I had been in my car, it would have been a non-issue, the guy did not know how to drive. Hi-light of the day was a ride with Jack and hanging out with the guys. Missed you out there Todd. Milts car looks really good on the track and it was not obvious that he was still getting use to her.

[nostatic]

Believe me Brad, I wanted to be there. But, after the weekend, a bunch of work done on the car, more stuff that needs to be aquired so I can do TTs, and an August trip to Laguna Seca, my budget needed a break.

hmm....shouldn't say "break" when talking about cars.

With the bozos it can be fun to let them by, then fill their mirrors on the turns and make 'em nervous. The only downside is that sometimes they do unpredictable things so you really have to be "on." I can remember some guys who would take insane lines anywhere from 2 through 6. It was all I could do to keep from diving underneath and passing. It sucks to have to tap the brakes mid turn because the yahoo in front of you is in outerspace.

Some of them honsetly don't know what they're doing and are eager to learn. But others think they have it wired and just aren't interested in getting a clue. I try and always remember that no matter how much faster I was than last time, there are a ton of guys who are quicker that I can learn from.

[Zeke]

But why are you so close as to even be able to pass? It's only practice for chrissakes! When I found myself coming up on people, I gauged the intersection time and began to gas it when entering one of the 2 passing zones. Meanwhile, I left 2 car lengths between me and a slower car out of respect for safety and the comfort of the other driver. Good Lord, there was a ton of room out there yesterday with about half the usual field.

At 2.2L, and MAYBE 180 HP, I'm not much for a 3.2 Boxster to handle speed wise. In fact, most of the cars out there are more powerful. Brad was kind to move over when the time came and I never rode his bumper. Didn't need to.

Everyone wants to experience the thrill of W2W competition. Cat and mouse; call it whatever you want, but we are talking about the COOL DOWN lap. Does that not mean anything to anyone? As light as Kailo was on instruction for the day in the drivers' meeting, he did definitely mention the cool down lap and all the flags. I saw the black twice. Once, we all gathered back at the line in the hot pit and waited for the track to be cleared and the other time the flag was out for only few cars. Those that proceeded down the straight were wrong even though the flag had been taken down at the main flagstand. It WAS displayed in 8 and that's enough for me to pull off course. The fact that the starter came over to my car and told me that he had opened the course back up green validated that he HAD the course under black flag for some cars and the Boxster was one of those cars.

I'm not going to stress over this, but too many infractions in one day and especially ones that go unnoticed gives me cause for concern.

[nostatic]

cool down lap is a different story. But when we're green, I'm looking to reel in whoever is in front of me. Its the way I'm wired. I'm not going to go postal if I can't do it, but its part of what drives me to drive.

[Jack Olsen]

Milt, I should have spoken to the Boxster driver after you spoke to me, and I didn't. I apologize about that. This is a pretty hands-off group, and it usually gets good behavior out of its participants as a result. But there were a lot of first-timers out there yesterday, and I think the group would probably benefit from someone at start/finish monitoring everyone's on-track behavior during the day. Maybe eJohnny will see this thread and initiate some changes.

(As an aside, I've seen some terrible behavior at STS events from the people who really have no excuse -- the more-experienced racers who are out there with the ordinary getting-their-short-track-license guys.)

Aside from that, I thought it was a pretty good day. There was little to no traffic because of the light turn-out. The weather didn't get too hot or too windy. There were no offs worse than Milt's and the 928's. No cars left on flatbeds.

Here are a few pictures I took.

Nice black SC:



Tyson's 'Scrappy':



Milt's 'Zekespeed':



My car in turn 4. You can see my splitter getting pushed down where the wire isn't holding it up in the center:

[Vipergrün]

I think that folks, especially first timers, sometimes forget that these are NOT a W2W event and are not billed as such, nor are most of the cars setup safety-wise at anywhere near that level. Yes, my Civic was the slow car of the blue group, but I had the correct lines and the awareness to point folks by, follow the flags, etc. The last thing I need is for some yahoo in a rental mustang to ream me from behind cuz he's trying to play Nascar...regardless of what I am driving. I also agree with Jack, you'll find the same types of folks no matter where you drive or race, but I'd hope there would be some ramifications if this sort of thing happened in a club-sponsored event.

[rich22]

Originally posted by nostatic
With the bozos it can be fun to let them by, then fill their mirrors on the turns and make 'em nervous.

So then who's the bigger bozo, you or him?

The only downside is that sometimes they do unpredictable things so you really have to be "on." I can remember some guys who would take insane lines anywhere from 2 through 6. It was all I could do to keep from diving underneath and passing.

Sheesh, and you want to instruct? I hope you don't pass on these tendencies to any students.

They paid the same amount of money as you did to be there. As long as they don't endanger anyone else, like by diving underneath and passing, they can drive whatever way they want.

[nostatic]

Originally posted by rich22
They paid the same amount of money as you did to be there. As long as they don't endanger anyone else, like by diving underneath and passing, they can drive whatever way they want.

No they can't. If somebody is NOT in the beginner group and is "driving whatever way they want", then imho they *are* endangering other cars. This isn't playing in the canyons or on the 405. It is a controlled environment and you expect a certain level of capability in the car and the driver. I take my driving seriously at the track, both from a safety and performance standpoint. I expect the same from other drivers, especially in intermediate and advanced run groups.

as for my other comments....my bad. If you ever saw me at the track, you'd see very smooth and by-the-rules driving. My comments were more tongue in cheek and out of frustration having "btdt." Better to get it out here than behind the wheel.

But I have been known to fill up the mirrors of drivers, especially if they don't check their mirrors (like they are SUPPOSED to do), or give a point-by (like they are SUPPOSED to do). I'm not the fastest guy on track, and when somebody comes up behind me, I point them by asap. I expect others to do the same. If they aren't checking their mirrors and they aren't pointing-by, then *they* are not playing by the rules and should be black flagged.

[Zeke]

Todd, I'm glad you clarified that. Another point is that the track is 2.5 mi. long and there are 2 passing zones. There is quite a bit of track and six turns from the front straight passing to the back straight passing (for those of you reading that don't know the track well). It is not practical nor safe to slow down anticipating a driver who is faster but hundreds of yards back at the front. However, that driver may be on top of the lead car before the 2nd zone. That occurred to me both ways many times. When I caought up, I backed off, as I mentioned, and gassed it when it was time to dispatch the slow car as quickly as possible and allowing another driver to pass me in the same zone. When I was slower, I got over as quickly as I could.

Now lets' take a look at even another situation. I see a driver who wants by in 8. I want to let him by ASAP. So, do I maintain my best speed thru 9 and carry the car out in the left half of the straight and bring it back right as soon as I finish my turn, or do I take 9 a wee bit slower and finish the turn more off to the right giving PLENTY of room and not freaking the guy out behind me that I'm going to push him off into the weeds?

I did it both ways and I felt the pressure either way, especially when backing up a bit and keeping right. You know, the ol' narrow body is crabbing thru the entire turn and one mistake like pinching the turn or lifting would surely be a spin. Yet, the "bozo" can't see what effort I'm putting out and only wants to run my ass over.

Brad, thanks for the observation that I didn't look too squirlly out there. If I felt like a liability, I would have put myself int he yellow run group. But, I felt comfortable and did my best to obey the flags and give others room.

BTW, I've had time to go over the car. Damage so far is 3 bent wheels (one cracked by a rock), a bent cross member and a possibly bent spindle. I have yet to put a dial indicator on the rotors to check the hubs, but they seem OK. Still, this won't be cheap to fix.

[nostatic]

Milt, my take (fwiw) is that if someone comes up on you in 8, either you eased off a lot going in, or he is flying. I always feel that pointing by on the back straight is tougher than the front, not only because it is shorter, but when you crest the hill on 6, you really need to be pointed in the right direction, which takes you to the left (ie leaving no room to pass).

But assuming someone comes up hot in 8, I'd still maintain my line and speed through 9, with maybe just a bit less on the throttle going into the apex, and drifting over right asap. If he is that fast, he'll be able to get by you on the front straight without any problem. As soon as he's past I'd be back on the gas hard to try and follow him

Whenever I focus too much on my mirrors and drive to someone else's line, I get uncomfortable. I think driving a good solid line and a good solid speed through the turn is the best thing you can do...that is predictable. If you let off in the turn in order to make the pass easier, you risk spinning your car, and having the overtaking car having to brake in the corner too...I hate it when that happens.

[Vipergrün]

IMHO, if I were in turn 8 with someone on my tail, I'd hold my line, speed and exit line, track the car out, then back to the right. Depending on the car following you, there is a decent chance that you have gained distance on him thru 8 and 9, and you'll need to back off on the straight a bit. Those two turns are just too gnarly to do anything else with. Also, if the guy is *that* good, perhaps he should move up a run group.

Sorry to hear about the damage to your car Milt, that sucks, especially after all of your hard work.

[ted]

Originally posted by bb80sc
IMHO, if I were in turn 8 with someone on my tail, I'd hold my line, speed and exit line, track the car out, then back to the right.

At a DE if you have not given a point by you should expect to own the turn, regardless of the line you choose.

Sometimes it's a good idea to practice the off line approaches too.
In practice sessions for a race this is common.

I need a track fix.

I know you guys are restricted by DE etiquette, but the exit of T 8 is a great place to pass. If the lead car tracks out you will find plenty of room to pass inside, except then you are offline entering T 9 but at least on the inside.
Sweet pass if you can hold it down the front straight.

At the PCA DE they permit point byes between T 2 and T 3.
T 1 to T 6 is a long time if you are being held up.

Have fun I'd like to try a mid week DE someday too.

[RSupdate]

Good observation Ted, T8 definitley offers a thrilling ride, and if coming up on slower cars at the exit transition of T8 to T9 that is a good place to pass on either side depending on the passing rules in effect, i.e. point by's, passing side etc..

I have made good use of that part of the track on many occasions and the only thing you want to be careful of is having the ability to still late apex T9 as best as possible in order to keep your momentum up.

Ya know these mid-week DE's are very alluring. Gawd how early would I have to get up to do one of these....Milt? what's yer time frame? yer just north of me in LB...

I'm a lite wgt and would be tempted to get a room the nite before...but for one track day....sheesh...theres an extra $65 I'd like to keep.

Living in LA is a definite plus to get to WSIR at zero dark :30 on a week day.

Maybe Ted & I will surprise the regulars sometime... later on this year...heheheee...