path to W2W in CA: how to get there?

[nostatic]

OK, December I'll be signed off on my POC TT license and will likely keep on the path to get Race licensed with them...but it takes forever. I won't be able to do anything until 2007 if I understand the procedure correctly. Not to toot my own horn, but I think I've gotten fairly good pretty quickly, and am looking to go to the next level. Alfa club was mentioned as an option (but I don't see a race school on their calendar yet), but any others? I'm also on a budget (ha!) so a commercial route isn't really a viable way to go.

[emcon5]

I posted this in the other thread, but since you started a new one, I'll answer here as well.

Go to an SCCA regional licensing school. Once you have your SCCA novice permit, you can apply for a NASA rookie permit, and race W2W immediately with both NASA and SCCA as a novice/rookie. Two races with SCCA gets you a regional competition license, 4 races with NASA gets a
competition license. My SCCA school with San Francisco region was ~$500 and I got ~ 6 hours track time, plus 2 races over 3 days.

When you put the cage in your car, make sure is complies with SCCA Improved Touring specs, and you can probably race in regional Improved Touring "E" class, even though a 911 is not a touring car. I know in the San Francisco SCCA region ITE is pretty much open, the only rules are any tub chassis production vehicle running with DOT tires, and the car must meet Showroom Stock or IT safety requirements. You can read the SCCA rules here.

Unfortunately CalClub (SoCal SCCA) is much more restrictive for ITE class, with limited mods, and a Fuel cell required, but still doable for a street driven car. Details here.

Tom

[nostatic]

I actually joined NASA this year when I was pondering the Open Track Challenge. I'll have to birddog this...

[emcon5]

I am a NASA member, and most of my races are with them.

Keep in mind, NASA will recognize a SCCA license. SCCA does not recognize a NASA license.

I think your biggest hurdle at this point is the car. You need to get a proper cage built, the necessary safety gear, and get a log book(s) issued. You can't get a race license from either SCCA or NASA without a race car.

Tom

[Jack Olsen]

Todd, the easiest way down here is to do Alfa Club's school. It's both good and cheap, and their license is recognized by pretty much everybody else.

You can put a toe in the water even easier, though. I can probably get you into the exhibition race with ARC at Sears next week. As a rookie, you'll start at the back of the pack. But it's a good 'free sample' kind of experience for a couple of reasons. It has no points at stake in the ARC series, so no one has a reason to get rough with you. Plus, they don't tolerate contact -- especially in an exhibition race. And starting at the back, you'll get to practice some passing.

I woudn't recommend it for everyone. School first is the best way to go, by far. But you've got a lot of seat time, and a level head. And the exhbition race is not a 'real' race. The real ones are the following weekend at Thunderhill.

You'll need a window net or arm restraints and a fire extinguisher to run the exhibition race. To do any real racing, you're going to need a cage. But you can get a waiver for that with the exhibition race, probably.

ARC's a great group to race with, in that the fields are not NASA-crowded, and their rule book makes the POC or PCA rule guys look like freakish ninnies by comparison. After running with ARC for a while (or completing the Alfa school) you can get a provisional SCCA license with a letter. And then the W-2-W world is wide open.

Also: With NASA and SCCA, you need to be prepared for more friendly car-to-car contact than with ARC or Alfa Club. At least, according to what I've heard. Maybe some racers will correct me if I'm wrong about this.

[nostatic]

That would be cool to do the exhib race at Sears...doesn't matter to me if I start dead last. Chasing is a big part of the fun. I've got fire extinguisher, and could get either window net or arm restraints from Crow. I've gotten pretty used to traffic over the last year and am comfortable in it.

Looks like a cage will be the next mod. Once the damn divorce is final and I have some money...

[emcon5]

Also: With NASA and SCCA, you need to be prepared for more friendly car-to-car contact than with ARC or Alfa Club. At least, according to what I've heard. Maybe some racers will correct me if I'm wrong about this.

I would say that is a fair asessment. That is why a large part of why I race a VW Rabbit.

That being said, Todd, consider buying an actual race car. 30 seconds on IT forums found me these, both look like good starter cars, and both are fairly inexpensive, and both can be raced with NASA and SCCA.

http://itforum.improvedtouring.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=6518
http://itforum.improvedtouring.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=6380

Tom

[4 Kurves]

Todd,
I'm close to the same level as you - this was my first full year at with the POC and I won the NI class in the STS and I am already TT licensed.

I have a friend who is a pro racer (won the GA GT class this past weekend) and he has been urging me to go on to racing - he suggested rent a spec Miata at BW and do the SCCA school. From there NASA or others but also stay with the POC/PCA as the level there is quite competitive.

My problem is that I'm using a expensive street car that I don't want to turn into a race car (2004 GT-3) so my goal is to do what John Gordon has just done and get a used Cup car. The GT-3 is so awesome and I have done rather well with it (to toot my own horn) so I don't want to step backward into an older car. After all I'm doing this for fun so I want a car that is well develop and doesn't require a lot of maintience (for a race car) and the Cup fits that bill.

I would suggest that you do what Jack and others here suggest but also plan to do the POC Racer Clinics in June and December next year - the extra teaching and experience can't hurt and should benefit - that's how I look at it anyway.

I'll be out at Willow on Dec 3rd/4th - come by and say hi. I have a white GT-3, car number 796 and I have a 20 ft enclosed trailer with Mechanix Wear stickers in the side (I work for MW).

What a great weekend this past STS was huh? My wife ran in orange (we share the car for STS) and had a great time even though she really should be in blue. I ran in the Red group with all the race cars which was fun. New track records for me (breaking my own) with a 1:11.78 on Saturday and a 1:25.56 on Sunday. Spent most of the day on Sunday trying to keep the Cup cars in sight!

I've gone about as far as I can in the GT-3 in a stock set up (except for RS wing). So now, while I wait for my dream race car I'm going to put a bit into the car with suspension, exhaust and a few Cup car pieces. On to NP class next year no doubt.

Gawd, this stuff is fun isn't it?

-Kevin Reynolds

[nostatic]

Kevin,

I remember the car (I was running in orange) and was going to stop by and say hello. Funny because on the way home I was thinking about what I'd want to race, wanting to stick with rear wheel drive, and spec miata popped into my head.

I had great days saturday and sunday, getting new class records for II (1:16.9) on saturday, then IP (1:33.1) on sunday. Why the class change? Someone protested my car since it has a ducktail on the back. Oh well. Too much advantage for my raging 180 stock hp with stock t-bars

I'll be at Willow Dec 3/4 to get my final signoff, and plan on doing the race clinics in June and December (saw that the schedule got posted). My car isn't nearly as nice/expensive as yours, so I don't mind racing it, but I do have an issue that I don't have a truck/trailer, so I drive to events. That means I need to be able to drive home if at all possible. That is somewhat at odds with W2W, but we'll see...

[dtfastbear]

Two words for those who want to go w2w quickly: spec miata!

Let me preface that by saying, for those who don't mind if they aren't driving a Porsche and are just more concerned about driving and might not have deep pockets, THEN spec miata is the way to go.

I would love to be racing a 911 with all my friends in the Porsche Racing Club Toyo spec series, but $$ and time were against me. While several of my friends spent big bucks and hundreds of hours building 911 race cars from scratch, I paid $7500 for a fully set up spec miata and went racing two weeks later. More than a year later, those guys are just now turning the wheels on their project 911 race cars while I've got a full season of racing under my belt.

If you're curious about the spec miata route, I'd really recommend that you try renting, first. For $500 a day, all in, you can run in a fully prepared SM car and see if it is for you.

Better yet, leave SoCal early this Sunday morning and let my wife or I take you for a ride in our spec miata at Infineon Sunday afternoon, and you can judge for yourself if it is something that you want to get into.

Dean

[nostatic]

If I can get out of town early enough, i'll take you up on that. I've pondered spec miata, as my budget seems to be shrinking daily. The renting thing sounds like a possible way to go...

[lowyder993s]

[QUOTE]My problem is that I'm using a expensive street car that I don't want to turn into a race car (2004 GT-3) so my goal is to do what John Gordon has just done and get a used Cup car. The GT-3 is so awesome and I have done rather well with it (to toot my own horn) so I don't want to step backward into an older car. After all I'm doing this for fun so I want a car that is well develop and doesn't require a lot of maintience (for a race car) and the Cup fits that bill.

...Uh you may want to re-think this strategy. A used cup car is usually in need of a motor refresh. $20k is the number my mech has thrown around. Unless you're happy running @ the back of your class (and who among us is), you'll need to throw in some grip for whatever mods the car is lacking. OTOH...you can get an older well sorted car in the 30-50k range, have money left over for tires, registration fees, nice hotels when you're @ Laguna and Sears. I tracked my 993 and I never understood what the gummers were talking about regarding a visceral feel for an older 911. Now I know. My brother and put 11k miles on the motor before it let go. I've already got 1k on the rebuild since September. My motor went from an 3.0sc to 3.2ss for 13k. I've still got money to go racing, and if I throw it into a wall, I'm not out 100 large, 50 maybe, but not 100. BTW, JGordon will need to have someone help him set that car up, it was sketchy looking in some areas of the track this w/e.

Todd...if I were you, I'd run the Racer's Clinic in April, complete it w/o incident and plead your case to Jeff M. FWIW, I was able to run the small Tribute after 1 clinic. MAKE SURE you have ALL the required safety equipment and cutoffs AND THEY WORK! before the class. I thought I knew how to race before taking that class having done 5 PCA races before, but they really teach you alot. Alot about the mentality everyone has (or should have) when W2W. Best of luck and we'll see you in the grid.

[Cory M]

If spec miata appeals to you because it is a low cost, easy route into wheel to wheel racing but you still want the ability to run with the POC and PCA you should really consider 944 spec. 944 spec races under NASA and their rules are recognized by POC (GSR class) and PCA. So you can have a fun, cheap car and still run with Porsche groups. Licensing is easy, just take the Driving Concepts race school and send in your $50 for a NASA provisional.

[emcon5]

Originally posted by dtfastbear
Two words for those who want to go w2w quickly: spec miata!

Spec Miata is still pretty cheap, but unfortunately, due to it's popularity it doesn't seem to be as inexpensive as it once was. Fortunately, due to it's popularity, there are bargains to be had by people getting out of other classes who want to race Spec Miata.

A big advantage to SM, with the large fields you will always have someone to race with, because that are enough guys out there that there will be someone who is about the same speed. Miatas are also classed as ITA, so you can run 2 classes in one weekend, maybe more depending on the schedule. Dean and Laura ran 2 classes each in their Miata last month with SCCA.

Originally posted by Cory M
If spec miata appeals to you because it is a low cost, easy route into wheel to wheel racing but you still want the ability to run with the POC and PCA you should really consider 944 spec. 944 spec races under NASA and their rules are recognized by POC (GSR class) and PCA.

Depending on the level of prep, a 944 can also run with SCCA as ITS class, NASA as PS1 or German touring sport challenge.

Originally posted by emcon5
http://itforum.improvedtouring.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=6518
http://itforum.improvedtouring.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=6380

I didn't notice that IT forums made the classifieds members only, so here is the readers digest condensed version of each. ( I don't know either of these guys) The first link is for what seems to be a well-sorted ITA first generation Mazda RX7, and a 24' enclosed trailer. He wants $4,000 for the car and $3,500 for the trailer, or $7,000 for both. (Car is near Cincinnati)

The second link is for 1986 Audi Coupe GT ITB, with fuel cell, fire system and some spare wheels/tires. he is asking $4500, and has an open trailer available for $800 (Pennsylvania).

Buying a race car will always be less expensive than building one, and if you want to go W2W racing, you really need a tow vehicle of some sort, and a trailer. There is just too much crap you find you need, and always a posibility that the car will break.

Tom

[4 Kurves]

...Uh you may want to re-think this strategy. A used cup car is usually in need of a motor refresh. $20k is the number my mech has thrown around.

Well.... I've been shopping a Cup car for over a year now so I'm well versed in the costs. And willing to accept them - but I fully understand why others cannot or will not. Cup cars on the market range from almost zero hours (after rebuild) to 80 hours (in need of a rebuild). I'm not made of money being a working stiff but I've done ok - at least well enough that I can acept going down this particular road. There are all different levels - if I was a gizillionare I wouldn't be buying a used car.

BTW, JGordon will need to have someone help him set that car up, it was sketchy looking in some areas of the track this w/e.

John was doing quite well considering he was running slicks with 13 heat cycles and it was only his 3rd time in the car. The car seems to be set up fine and he has a good crew working with him on - he'll be ok.

[lowyder993s]

Good on both of you

Hope to see you both out there...be gentle going by

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

Originally posted by dtfastbear
Two words for those who want to go w2w quickly: spec miata!

That class has developed quite a reputation in some areas... It's been labeled "Wreck Me Outta" at least a couple of times that I have heard. Is there any truth to that reputation in Northern CA? (Or southern, for that matter.) It would suck to get a reasonable SM car put together, only to have some hoser decide that the fastest way through the corner was to bounce off of you...

That's one problem with "near-disposable" race cars--someone will decide to risk "disposing" of his car in order to gain some miniscule advantage.

Again, what I have heard may be blown totally out of proportion, or it may be specific to one or two areas. That's why I'm asking if the reputation has a basis in reality in this area.

--DD

[dtfastbear]

There are definitely a few drivers who have earned the entire class this reputation. Also, with 70 cars taking a green flag with a WIDE range of driver ability, accidents are going to happen. I've seen very unfortunate incidents and I've seen very avoidable incidents.

In NorCal, at least in the SCCA, we've got the attention of the race officials, and we're trying to crack down on the folks who do treat this class like bumper-cars. If you're interested, check out the discussion forums in specmiata.com under the San Francisco SCCA section and look at a couple of the recent threads. You'll see a lot of drivers who are now applying a lot of peer pressure on those folks who aren't so much racing as just driving as fast as they freakin' can while on the track with others...

I've done an entire season now with absolutely, positively no body damage - knock on wood.

Dean

[emcon5]

Originally posted by dtfastbear
There are definitely a few drivers who have earned the entire class this reputation. Also, with 70 cars taking a green flag with a WIDE range of driver ability, accidents are going to happen. I've seen very unfortunate incidents and I've seen very avoidable incidents.

I always liked the Spec-Pińata nickname better

Keep in mind those 70 cars taking the green flag are almost all within a half second a lap of the cars in front of and behind them. That makes for some really close, exciting racing. It also makes contact much more likely.

RE: "near-disposable" race cars, they all are, even a brand new GT3 RSR. Bad things happen, sometimes they are someone's fault, sometimes just bad luck. The saying "Don't take a car on track you wouldn't be willing to push off a cliff" applies doubly to wheel to wheel racing.

Tom

[orcadigital]

Some might say if everyone had those ~2 years of learning before getting a license though, that not as many incidents would happen.

Not to say anyone isnt a good driver, i know i am way too new of a rookie to be criticising anyone, but i feel quite confident around people i know from DE's, when racing, that they know me, and my car, and they will give me the racing room i need, as i will give it to them, so that we wont be trading paint.

And just to mention, one of the people with a provisional license, almost ran me into a wall, and did run into my mechanic/friends car.

I know after 2 and a half years of DE's, that i felt ok about being close to someones bumper, or them being close to mine, but the club race was a totally different animal, because in DE's, that traffic wasnt trying to pass me...on both sides...at the same time...in a corner...

Just one rookie drivers (yes i still have my X for 2 more races) thoughts on searching for the "easy" and "fast" way into W2W.

slippery slope indeed.

Grant