autocross / de tires

[Pete R]

Hi, guys, I'm a newbie to this. I searched for this and didn't find anything so If it's repetitive and you could point me to a thread I'd appreciate it. I am looking to see what you guys recommend for brand and model tire.
I have recently purchased a 88 944 turbo with the intention of auto-crossing and de. It is lowered and has camber plates (not sure if that's the right term) I have an extra set of rims so the tires will only be run at events. I am relatively new to this and am looking for a pretty durable and predictable tire rather than ultimate traction. I am interested to hear what you guys have had good luck with. thanks Pete

[JeremyD]

Toyo RA1 or Nitto Nt01

[5:04]

I would stay away from an R comp or even a sticky tire if you're new.

I'd get something that has decent traction and just learn how to control the car with the crap tires for a season. I'd use something crappy like Falken Ziex or some of the mid range Khumo's like AST's or anything between 240-300 treadwear.

Good tires hide mistakes that a bad tire would make obvious. When I had my Miata I would do the occassional event with 4 different tires on my stock 14x5.5 wheels just to work on car control and being smooth.

[JeremyD]

Yeah, let me rephrase that - I'd stick with street tires for the first 5-10 events (for each) - maybe the Dunlop Direzza or the Kuhmo Ecsta MX or the Nitto NT05's.

I'd THEN put the RA1 or NT01's on the spare set and see how you do from there.

Tough to really learn on tires that don't talk to you as much.

[KEV951]

in order of best to good ,

toyo ra1
bf goodrich r1
toyo r888

those are all R compound.
For cheap good zr street tires i would go with yokohama es100's

[Pete R]

thanks guys. I should have said I'm new to the car and DE. I've autocrossed a couple seasons in a 928. (I know it's kinda like skiing the mid west) and I've been through enough racing schools that I am qualified for a racing lisence, so I'm not a complete rookie, Though I do agree not to jump on r-compounds too quick but I'll buy a set to autocross on. I'm going to do at least a few de's on street tires to get a feel for the car.
I know it's an extremely variable question, but how long do the r compound tires last. Are they generally done after 1 de or can you get a few out of them.

[JeremyD]

depends on the weight of the car - but I've gotten years out of the 100 wear RA1's. A few DE's where I've gone through a set of Hoosiers in a weekend (with two drivers) but the RA1s are Exceelent - and they get faster as they wear - right to the cords...

[5:04]

I've had AO48's on a DD with some sort of Auto-X/DE every week and they lasted me 3 months and a few thousand miles. I'm on R888's on my 911 now and they've lasted a while. I'll probably use them on the street for a little while along with a track day or 2 and be done.

Knowing your experience I'd go with a Khumo XS, Dunlop Star Spec, or Hankook RS3 depending on size. All three have great traction, can last a while, and are good enough for rain driving.

[911st]

Maybe put the Dunlop Star Spec's on your street rims. Great street tire and works well for track and autoX.

Later put the Toyo, Nitto, or what ever on the second set of rims.

[Flieger]

Originally Posted by 5:04

I've had AO48's on a DD with some sort of Auto-X/DE every week and they lasted me 3 months and a few thousand miles. I'm on R888's on my 911 now and they've lasted a while. I'll probably use them on the street for a little while along with a track day or 2 and be done.

Knowing your experience I'd go with a Khumo XS, Dunlop Star Spec, or Hankook RS3 depending on size. All three have great traction, can last a while, and are good enough for rain driving.

How would you rate the A048s? I run them but they are my first real performance tires so I have nothing to compare them to. They seem to stick well in the canyons but on really hot days they seem to get a little "greasy" after some miles of spirited driving. My car is light so I decided against the MPSC in favor of the Advans because they are supposed to heat up quicker or not need so much weight so maybe it is just a consequence of that.

[5:04]

I'd rate them as great for a tire to do DE's and Auto-x's combined and on a car that you drive to and from the track on them. I had 2 sets of them on my Turbo Miata and they gripped very well and got heat fairly quickly. They did get a bit greasy towards the end of their life when they got really hot. The car weighed 2100lbs and was on 225's square though so it was pretty easy to not over heat them.

I'd say compared to NT01's they're much less grippy, but I wouldn't want to DD on NT01's.

The R888's came with the 911 and I'm doing my first track day in this car on the 21st so I'll let you know what I think about those.

[mmagus]

Since others have chimed in about specific tires I would add that you need to take a look at the rules for the group you are running with. Different tire tread wears will most likely be a factor in the class you run in.

I know if I get below 140 tread wear I am automatically moved up a class.

[Pete R]

great point mmagus, I looked into it. The "r" compound isn't even allowed in a couple of the groups. which is where I assume I will be. So I definately won't be getting a set of those for a while. thanks everyone

[Flieger]

Yeah, my daily driver has a wear rating of like 640 or something like that. The A048s are 60. They do wear quickly but they also do that wearing quickly.

[grendiers]

I'd get something that has decent traction and just learn how to control the car with the crap tires for a season. I'd use something crappy like Falken Ziex'


That's funny, and I sorta disagree. The all season Ziex tires, and maybe others of similar ilk, offer very little grip on the racetrack. Using these tires on a lightweight 924 turbo, I suffered from skidding around the esses on a particular track, and hated it, losing time just to keep on the track. I'd look for used tires, if possible, of the brand, size, and style you're looking for.

[PatrickB]

Originally Posted by Pete R

thanks guys. I should have said I'm new to the car and DE. I've autocrossed a couple seasons in a 928. (I know it's kinda like skiing the mid west) and I've been through enough racing schools that I am qualified for a racing lisence, so I'm not a complete rookie, Though I do agree not to jump on r-compounds too quick but I'll buy a set to autocross on. I'm going to do at least a few de's on street tires to get a feel for the car.
I know it's an extremely variable question, but how long do the r compound tires last. Are they generally done after 1 de or can you get a few out of them.

The problem I've encountered, is that even the highest quality performance street tire won't tolerate the heat cycling encountered in continuous lapping DE's. You will get one day of track use AT BEST!. They may still have plenty of tread, but as soon as they get to temp again (as in next track day), WORTHLESS! This is probably much different if you are doing AX. The street tires will likely last much longer.

This was the main reason I first switched to an R-Comp tire - Toyo RA1. I would typically get 8-9 track days with maybe 32-35 heat cycles before they would cord.
The last 2 sets of tires I've run are the BFG R1. Better grip overall, but only 28 heat cycles, PERIOD! The nice thing about the RA1's, you could drive back and forth to the track on them. Not so with the BFG's... Both of the above mentioned tires are likely not the best choice for AX though, IMHO...

[Joe Ricard]

If you already know how to drive and can put any car to the limit of adhesion. just get some Hoosier A6 and go fast.

Putting an all season tire on your Porsche will just be frustrating.

If you want a tire that will perform well and not too expensive. get the Toyo 888 or RA-1

You can also look at take off's from guys like John Berget. 80 bucks a pop for a really nice tire near full tread.

[david c.]

The Kumho XS is great for the money, too.

[5:04]

Originally Posted by grendiers

That's funny, and I sorta disagree. The all season Ziex tires, and maybe others of similar ilk, offer very little grip on the racetrack. Using these tires on a lightweight 924 turbo, I suffered from skidding around the esses on a particular track, and hated it, losing time just to keep on the track. I'd look for used tires, if possible, of the brand, size, and style you're looking for.

I think you missed the boat on this one. When it comes to an auto-x you'll learn more by having a car on tires with less grip than you will on tires that keep you glued. The skidding around is a good thing if you're trying to learn how to get the most out of a car. It helps you learn what's quick and what isn't. I wouldn't recommend this on a track since the speeds make it a little dangerous without some skill if things go south. However at an auto-x making a car go fast on garbage tires is much harder than with decent or good tires. IMO for a beginning driver crap tires will help you more than showing up to your first auto-x on A6's.

Originally Posted by PatrickB

The problem I've encountered, is that even the highest quality performance street tire won't tolerate the heat cycling encountered in continuous lapping DE's. You will get one day of track use AT BEST!.

Out of curiousity what tires were you using that got you one day?

[Mahler9th]

I started in 1987 in an N/A 944 on street tires at Lime Rock (worn out Dunlop SP3s... remember those?) No AX... straight to the track. I became interested in all of this in grad school in southern New Hampshire.

Anyway, once I knew I was gonna be at it for a while, it made sense to get a second set of wheels and sticky DOT r compound tires. I later moved to the 951 platform. Eventually I had two sets of track/AX wheels and one set for the street... by my second season.

I am a bit of a dino so many of the tires I used are NLA. I got two sets of scrubbed RA1's back in 1996 or so at a pro event and enjoyed them... back then I normally ran Comp T/A R1s and Hoosiers. By the time I got out of the 951 and moved to the 911, I was running Victoracers and Hoosiers on track and in AX. I had liked those RA1's, but they were more expensive than the Kumhos and not as fast as the Hoosiers.

I have never been a believer in the idea that running for a while on street tires as opposed to sticky DOTs helps you learn better. Never. Not in all of the years I have been driving and instructing. It really depends on too many variables to me. It certainly did not work that way for me or my wife. We were able to calculate that if we were going to do a fair number of events, it made financial sense to use sticky DOTs, and use street tires for the street. My wife was a little behind me on the curve, but she adjusted in nanoseconds to the sticky DOTs-- it did not affect her curve-climbing experience once bit. And when we went from a 360 bhp, 3000 pound 951 on Hoosiers, to our current car, a 1950 pound 911 on big sticky slicks, she was on pace pretty immediately. Of course we both felt that there was no weight in front of the 911 (there isn't)... but we adjusted to the grip of the slicks and used it immediately.

To me everyone is a bit different in terms of how they learn. What I suggest to students now if they are ready to move to sticky DOT tires is that the RA1 is a great place to start on a second set of wheels-- great grip/longevity versus $$. Or if they still make Victoracers they aren't bad... Then if you need/want more grip, move on from there to one of the currently favored go-really-fast DOT r tires.

I think the "you'll learn better on street tires before going to sticky tires" argument is not a rule for everyone. It depends. I do not buy the similar argument that some put forth that it is better to learn in a "momentum car." Or that you are better off in all cases doing AX for a while before going to the track. Or you should do several years of DE before goin' racing. It just depends.