What should I expect- I'm "Testing" a Ducktail at Willow Springs

[Plavan]

I'm going to play with the "Darkside".....

I'm testing a Ducktail this weekend at a VARA race. What should I expect? I have never raced a car with any type of Aero (Kinda sad considering I have been racing W2W since 1998...lol). I know the Ducktail is not much, but better than my stock decklid.

I'm just hoping it will lower the "Pucker Factor" through turn 8 and 9.

Will I notice a difference at all?

[Todd Simpson]

IMO, yes. I've run a duck for many years, and recently did a few sessions without it. 90mph cornering I did not notice a big difference, but braking from 130, right at initial application, was much more stable with the duck back on.

This was back to back sessions, everything else the same-about as consistent as an amateur like me can be.

I like the look without, too bad!

[Plavan]

I also like the look without the Duck, but the Cheater Z's in my class have been getting faster with their Spoilers. If the difference is not that great, I plan on throwing the stock lid back on. I was just at WS two weeks ago, so I can compare my lap times.
I sort of want it to be better, and I sort of want it to be the same. I like the no Aero look.
I guess I will find out soon.

Ps- those decals look great.

[Eagledriver]

I raced with a Duck for several years. I then put on an IROC tail and improved my lap time by about 1.5 seconds at Sears Point. I'd say a Duck is probably worth about the same over no aero. The tail just takes some of the pucker factor out of the high speed sweepers.

-Andy

[Zuluracerx]

IROC is what you want. Got me 4 seconds at Fontucky over my duck. Add a splitter to balance it out...

[Plavan]

Originally Posted by Zuluracerx

IROC is what you want. Got me 4 seconds at Fontucky over my duck. Add a splitter to balance it out...

I'm sure it is faster, but I'm keeping it with a vintage look.

[Zuluracerx]

I was running about 125 through 8 with my duck config, over that and it's a real thrill ride but it has to be better than nada tail...

[Tinker]

My experience is the same Zulu. For me with the duck and the front RS spoiler 8 is usually flat out and 125+.

Tinker

[Zuluracerx]

The data is out there, I believe in the RS book. I can't remember it exactly, but it was approx...

No tail and front spoiler and there is 400 pounds of tail lift above 130. Duck tail negated this down to about 150 pounds of lift. The IROC tail actually produced positive downforce. My real life experience supports this for sure. But, the IROC tail would not be "correct" for the early 911. After my experience with the two tails, it was pretty obvious why they only offered the duck tail for 72 and 73.

[cstreit]

Isn't that a SWB car?

You already have huge huevos driving one fast to begin with... Why shrink them with aero?

[Plavan]

Originally Posted by cstreit

Isn't that a SWB car?

You already have huge huevos driving one fast to begin with... Why shrink them with aero?

Haha! No its a 69' so its a LWB, but still a handful. WS has always been my trouble track. My best time there is a 1:33. I need to go faster, while leaving my skirt at home. The Datsun Z's keep getting faster and faster with "Their" period correct spoilers. I thought I would play too.
I have a 2 Hour enduro on Saturday, so I figured the Duck would help me at some point during those 2 hours

[Jack Olsen]

It's not going to make a world of difference, but it will make a difference.

Everybody always talks about turn 8 with aero, but it's the one corner at Willow where -- if anything -- you're going to be slightly slower with aero (although in reality, you'll probably be just about the same). The reason for this is that with our cars (assuming your motor isn't sneaking out huge power), you're flat through 8 no matter what. (If you're not, then you've got your car set up maybe looser than it ought to be?) But if you're flat without the duck, then the only thing the spoiler is getting you is drag.

But aero will deliver dividends at Willow in turns 1, 2 and 9. Those are corners where most of us are not flat on the gas, and the 80+-mph-generated lift is actually making a difference in how the tires hold. Spoil that lift, and you can carry more speed through those corners.

To me, 2 is the corner you want to do all your setup for at Willow. When I run my back-yard hooligan wing, that's the corner where I do my adjusting.

All that said, your VARA cars are light as a feather, twitchy as a teenager -- and you guys build 2.5 liters to pretty healthy numbers. So flat through 8 might not be a given. If that's the case, well...

...then I'm freakin' jealous.

[Plavan]

Thanks Jack. I'm no where near being flat out in 8. You can only turn left so much, in a right hand high speed sweeper. Haha

[winders]

Originally Posted by Plavan

Thanks Jack. I'm no where near being flat out in 8. You can only turn left so much, in a right hand high speed sweeper. Haha

You car exhibited a ton of oversteer in turn 4 at Laguna. Are you sure you don't have the rear end too stiff or the front too soft? Do you see understeer anywhere?

Scott

[Flieger]

Put Pat Long in it with no aero for a baseline, slap the duck on there and ask for his impressions after a few laps.

[Plavan]

Quote de Plavan

Thanks Jack. I'm no where near being flat out in 8. You can only turn left so much, in a right hand high speed sweeper. Haha

You car exhibited a ton of oversteer in turn 4 at Laguna. Are you sure you don't have the rear end too stiff or the front too soft? Do you see understeer anywhere?



Scott

It did. I found a bent front A-arm, and some funny alignment settings. All is good now (I hope). I'm full soft on the rear, and 1 setting from full stiff on the front sway bar.

The funny thing is P. Long was going to be there, but a vacation before his next race got in the way.

[Flieger]

Originally Posted by Plavan

It did. I found a bent front A-arm, and some funny alignment settings. All is good now (I hope). I'm full soft on the rear, and 1 setting from full stiff on the front sway bar.

The funny thing is P. Long was going to be there, but a vacation before his next race got in the way.

You gotta stay off those curbs!

[Jack Olsen]

I don't have good data, unfortunately. I have a 1:32 lap with just the ducktail from 2006. I'm flat on the gas through 8 with no tail drama in a 248-hp car that is (I assume) heavier than the VARA cars.



I want to say the VARA cars I've seen are set up 'too twitchy,' but I also have to say that they seem to be driven really well and they go like stink. And full disclosure: I keep getting better lap times as I dial out the push on my car with shocks and sways.

Are you allowed to put a sheet of plastic or aluminum on the underside of the cars in VARA?

[Plavan]

Originally Posted by Jack Olsen

I don't have good data, unfortunately. I have a 1:32 lap with just the ducktail from 2006. I'm flat on the gas through 8 with no tail drama in a 248-hp car that is (I assume) heavier than the VARA cars.



I want to say the VARA cars I've seen are set up 'too twitchy,' but I also have to say that they seem to be driven really well and they go like stink. And full disclosure: I keep getting better lap times as I dial out the push on my car with shocks and sways.

Are you allowed to put a sheet of plastic or aluminum on the underside of the cars in VARA?

Ohhh great no excuses now. Now I have something to shoot for. That looks much faster in 8 than what I do.

Loose is fast...to a point. Yes, we are lighter. My 2.5L puts out 210hp to the wheels. It makes me wonder since we are lighter, that the lift created is still the same except exaggerated on the light car. Hence the "Too Twitchy" effect.

As far as a sheet of plastic under the car, The Datsun Z guys would notice that in a second. lol

[moneymanager]

Chad, I think you'll notice it and on the theory that stability breeds confidence, I think you'll go faster. Most of us have found they need to balance even the ducktail at the front though, with a splitter or something for a bit less lift. See you Saturday. Jim