why is this harness questionable for DE?

[sbmackie]

OK, this is what I know: The PCA and SCCA have rules governing legal harnesses for DE/HPDE/PDX. I have a stock harness (three point, cross chest, interial reel, no anti submarine, with an aftermarket CG lock, single connection on inboard of each seat) in my 82 SC.

I'd like to know if this harness would be legal. My reasoning: It's three point, bolts to stock attachment points, (more secure at the outboard sides then the stock slider, I would think), inertial real locking with the added safety feature of lockable when on track, and has only a single 'coming together" point, just like the stock belt.




The strap differences are thus: what would be a single strap across my chest is replacedby two straps that start behind my head, and instead of connecting at my right hip, they all come together at my waist.

So: if this is a three point harness, which it is by the manufacturer's definition, and it has added features that appear to this lay person to be safer then the stock setup, would this be legal, and if so, why not?

What is the rationale behind needing the anti-submarine belt if you have anything other then the stock belts?

Not trying to fight city hall; looking for knowledge.
Thanks
Scott

[Cajundaddy]

Every sanctioning body has their own rule set so you probably should ask this question of the group you wish to run with to be sure. It would not be legal in PCA Zone 8 (SoCal/Nev/AZ):

* Not SFI or FIA approved.

* No "H" style harnesses allowed (higher incidence of submarining and spinal compression than OEM 3pt belts or 5pt harness) Possible exception: Schroth Profi ASM installed along with racing seats.

* No "Y" style harnesses allowed

Exact language below:

B. For Time Trial and DE, five or six-point harnesses are required for all drivers
and passengers running 200 Modification Points or higher and are strongly
recommended for all entrants. 5 or 6-point harnesses are allowed at Autocross
events, but they are not required.
Harnesses are required to be SFI or FIA approved for competition and mounted
in the manufacturer approved configuration. Any harness approved for club
racing is acceptable when installed according to the manufacturer’s
instructions. Evidence of this approval shall be provided by the driver, if
necessary.
While an approved competition seat is not required on its own, many harness
manufacturers require it for proper harness installation. If harnesses are
installed and the seat is not an SFI or FIA approved competition seat, the
entrant needs to bring documentation to prove that the installation follows the
manufacturer’s instructions.
Because the addition of the harness means that the occupants are fastened
upright in the vehicle, a properly padded roll bar or roll cage is strongly
encouraged to complete the SYSTEM. The use of one without the other may
result in an unsafe environment and is not a COMPLETE SYSTEM.
Five and six-point harnesses over five (5) years old; of questionable condition,
design, material or mounting; which are not installed according to the
manufacturer’s directions; which eliminate substantial contact of the lap belt
with the occupant; or which are in any way unsafe; will be disallowed for all
event types. Belt age is measured from the last day of the year of manufacture
(Dec 31).
The Brey-Krause adapter may be used with the stock seats as a pickup point for
the tunnel side lap belt in 1986 and later models.
“Y” harnesses are not allowed.
“H” style harnesses are not allowed.

[Pete R]

I myself have never understood some of the logic behind this stuff. They'll let me run in my 25 year old stock belts but my used less than 20 times , 6pt harness can't be used because it's SFI rated and over 2 years old.

[sbmackie]

My own region follows the PCA rules regarding seats and belts for DE (esentially the same as those mentioned above).

I can see submarining with either the stock belt, or the Corbeau. This begs the question, (again I search for 'why" the rule is, not "what" the rule is), why the 30 year old stock belt and clasp is acceptable, while the brand new Corbeau, which attaches at exactly the same points, and can be inertiallly locked at the piller mounted reel, and will give me better car control, is verbotten.

The original respondent, and I thank you for digging that out of your local regs, indicates the stock belt is safer for compression injuries and/or submarining. There must be some documentation on that. I'd love to see it.

I only do a couple DE's a year, mainly because they're expensive, but also because the risk factor goes up. So, I'm looking for any way to secure myself better in the car for car control purposes (increasing safety), without putting a harness bar in the car and drilliing another hole in my floorboards on both sides.

A side benefit is definitely a better AX exprience as well.

Alright, I'll let it drop now. Back to my sulking.

[winders]

Originally Posted by sbmackie

...(again I search for 'why" the rule is, not "what" the rule is)...

If every rule had an explanation/justification attached to it, rule books would be 10 times the size they are now.

Clearly the rule makers think that style of belt is more conducive to submarining. Do you need any more explanation?

Scott

[phigreg]

Originally Posted by sbmackie

My own region follows the PCA rules regarding seats and belts for DE (esentially the same as those mentioned above).

I can see submarining with either the stock belt, or the Corbeau. This begs the question, (again I search for 'why" the rule is, not "what" the rule is), why the 30 year old stock belt and clasp is acceptable, while the brand new Corbeau, which attaches at exactly the same points, and can be inertiallly locked at the piller mounted reel, and will give me better car control, is verbotten.

The original respondent, and I thank you for digging that out of your local regs, indicates the stock belt is safer for compression injuries and/or submarining. There must be some documentation on that. I'd love to see it.

I only do a couple DE's a year, mainly because they're expensive, but also because the risk factor goes up. So, I'm looking for any way to secure myself better in the car for car control purposes (increasing safety), without putting a harness bar in the car and drilliing another hole in my floorboards on both sides.

A side benefit is definitely a better AX exprience as well.

Alright, I'll let it drop now. Back to my sulking.

I think you should remember that the factory belts have had a lot of testing and certification behind them. Their safety is a fairly known entity.

After market belts and systems have not been tested as much and are looked upon with a jaundiced eye until they are better known or tested.

Greg

[Cajundaddy]

Originally Posted by phigreg

I think you should remember that the factory belts have had a lot of testing and certification behind them. Their safety is a fairly known entity.

After market belts and systems have not been tested as much and are looked upon with a jaundiced eye until they are better known or tested.

Greg

Exactly!
I like the look of that 3pt Corbeau restraint system and since my car is dual purpose street/track car I would love to have something safe that is simpler to use than a standard 5pt but it has not been independently tested. Without DOT, SFI or FIA testing, it does not go in my car.

To further answer the "why" look to crash test data available on the net. There is actually quite a lot. These guys do extensive testing and may have a restraint system that meets both your needs for a safe modern 3pt/4pt harness and meets the needs of your HPDE rulebook. Good hunting!
Standard 3-point safety belt vs. Schroth asm Rallye-3 - YouTube

[sbmackie]

Sometimes it DOES make sense to ask "why". I was able to get a small but decisive change to a reg simply by going against the flow of "we've always done it that way, don't rock the boat" when no really good answer existed (or may have been forgotten, which I'm aware in some cases leads to a repitition of the error). Yes it was to my benefit, but others benefitted as well.

This question seems to be resolved. As suggested, I'll do some scrounging, and if I come up with an appropriately certifed non-invasive harness system, I will bring it to the attention of the authorities and maybe get another minor adjustment made to my and other's benefit. Very Ayn Rand-ian of me, what? WHO IS JOHN GALT? (My wife is reading Atlas Shrugged).

Anyway, I will close my participation by thanking for the good inputs from all.

Scott.

[Eagledriver]

That belt set-up looks dangerous to me. The inertial reel is offset to the side so it would pull your head over to the side in an accident. The "sholder straps" spread as they go down the the lap belt, this could allow you to slip through them. The lap belt will be pulled up by the sholder straps and cause injuries to your abdomin or cause you to submarine.

-Andy

[Cajundaddy]

Update,
I have been in conversations with PCA National regarding some of these new styled 3/4pt harnesses that incorporate an anti-submarine design for use in HPDE/TT. If the ASM technology is tested and proven and they pass DOT, SFI or FIA certification we may yet see PCA approval for properly installed belts of this type in conjunction with a racing seat with shoulder pass-throughs.

[Dantilla]

The belt pictured above is illegal, not because of submarining, but because the shoulder belts will pull the lap belt up into the soft tissue area, causing internal injuries.

Stock belts have the shoulder portion attached at the base- NEVER to the lap belt.

Either the lap belt must remain seperate from the shoulder belts, or sub belts are required.

This system is illegal for the same reason four-point systems are not allowed.

[racer]

STOCK belts are also a DOT issue. If your local state required one to replace stock 3pt belts after time "x" , you would.

No club is going to say that DOT belts are no good..plain and simple (esp for "de").

I imagine the other issue with the OP's belt, is that they tend NOT to work well with factory seats. Without proper routing of the belt, it could spread in a frontal impact which would send you right into the steering wheel.