Learning how to pass

[aston@ultrasw.c]

I would like to learn how to pass on track in a race situation.

I think I know the strategy and theory well enough but I want some real world practice.

I have found references to passing drills and side-by-side exercises but i can not find detailed explanations.

So how is it done?

Please be assured that I will conduct such learning in an appropriate and safe environment etc...

Thanks

[aftermath]

Try racing sim games on your computer for practice.

There are guidelines, however keep in mind that people screw up. So if if you do the right thing, there might still be contact. One thing to understand is you need to learn who you can race side by side with and who to stay away from . That advice comes from chump car and ice racing experience....Other things come into play, you can be agressive and the other driver might make room, leaving yourself a out if they dont.

Whats your driving experience to date on the track? De, autocross, lapping, been racing a while?

[Pete R]

As mentioned, try a chump or lemons race. It's pretty much an exercise in mayhem. You will be passed and pass cars multiple times a lap. The awareness you learn in a $500 car is invaluable when you jump into a $50k car.

[aston@ultrasw.c]

I have over 100 DE and AX events, accumulating over 8,000 track miles.

I may enter a vintage race, so I want to practice up a bit first. Not to win, just to avoid being a hazard.

I am used to running close to others at speed and have confidence in my training partner.

[cstreit]

How to pass? Be faster than the other guy. That may be under braking, acceleration, mid-corner, you name it.

I don't think there is a way to just tell you without trying to go into 100 different strategic situations that you might encounter.

In Vintage with 911 the best place for passing is outbraking traditionally. You'll be out-horsepowered by half the cars out there... but no one will beat you on braking. I think you'd need to be much more specific in your question to get valuable insight.

[aston@ultrasw.c]

Originally Posted by cstreit

I think you'd need to be much more specific in your question to get valuable insight.

OK

describe the theory and operation of "passing drills" and "side-by-side exercises"

[cstreit]

IMO Both of those are used to get comfortable running close to your fellow drivers. Side-by-side is simply driving side by side around the track. Get comfortable with the proximity while increasing speed.

A passing drill? No idea.

Bottom line is to learn how to pass you need to be comfortable with the proximity and distance judgments the pass requires.

You simply don't learn this in DE's. Not with 100, not with 1000. DE's teach car control. Racing teaches strategy and judgment. You need to learn what a "low percentage pass" is. You'll need to learn what it's like to run door-handle to door-handle at the limit through multiple corners. How to setup for the pass-repass... I'm not trying to diminish your DE experience at all. Simply saying I don't think there is a real documented primer on this. It's done through seat time while in a race. Hold your line, drive fast, drive predictably and you won't be a hazard.

[Mahler9th]

Several sanctioning bodies and auto racing rule books discuss/describe passing expectations in text and with drawings. Two that come to mind are NASA, and the Porsche Racing Challenge Series. Documents are available on the NASA and Porsche Racing Club web sites respectively.

In the case of the latter, the guidelines have been in place for over a decade and were written by an expert that has been involved with racing and performance driving since 1965. He is also the steward for the longest endurance race in the U.S.

Likely there are other available documents as well, perhaps from SCCA, PCA Club Racing, and some of the vintage organizations.

Careful review of these various guidelines, rules and expectations might be a great place to start from an off-track standpoint.

Quite a few organizations have graduated run groups where you can grow passing skills along with other skills before you move to wheel-to-wheel racing. NASA is an example.

[Mahler9th]

I have never driven in or attended a Lemons race. Nor in other types of similar events. I have quite a few friends with extensive racing experience who do these types of events.

I suspect that there is a broader range of experience, skill and behavior than perhaps what you'd encounter in other types of racing. There may be opportunities to learn, but I suspect that the fat part of the opportunity curve lies elsewhere.

[Cajundaddy]

Dive bombing the inside in a braking zone and failing to leave room for the other car is usually a recipe for car contact. This is frowned on in vintage racing where gentleman's racing rules usually apply. Every form of racing has a different level of expectations so you need to start there and know the rule book.

Every driver has strengths and weaknesses so play to your strengths and observe others weaknesses. If you have more power- get them on the straight, better braking- get them going into a corner, more grip in the corners- take them on the inside if open. Hundreds of possibilities.

Nascar- Rubbin' is racin'
Motocross- kicking the other rider down mid corner is legal and expected.
Chump car- minor contact sometimes expected but T-boning is frowned upon.
Vintage- PCA- Open wheel= All considered zero-contact sports.

[SiberianDVM]

Originally Posted by Cajundaddy

Dive bombing the inside in a braking zone and failing to leave room for the other car is usually a recipe for car contact. This is frowned on in vintage racing where gentleman's racing rules usually apply. Every form of racing has a different level of expectations so you need to start there and know the rule book.

Every driver has strengths and weaknesses so play to your strengths and observe others weaknesses. If you have more power- get them on the straight, better braking- get them going into a corner, more grip in the corners- take them on the inside if open. Hundreds of possibilities.

Nascar- Rubin' is racin'
Motocross- kicking the other rider down mid corner is legal and expected.
Chump car- minor contact sometimes expected but T-boning is frowned upon.
Vintage- PCA- Open wheel= All considered zero- contact sports.

What he said.

Since "stuff" happens out on the race track, I decided to go the Chump Car route. I would much rather have my old Supra banged up and dented than my old 911.

You can rent a seat at a Chump Car event very easily and get the only kind of racing experience that is worthwhile: actual seat time in a real race.

[RichardNew]

As I get older I find I like passing less and less. My current technique is to get up behind a car and wait for them to pull over. When your mirrors are full of a faster car it's a little intimidating. It also works.

Richard Newton
Silly Tech Stuff

[peehonix]

Over 100 de's?? You still do not know how to pass??? Sounds like you need to go back to the beginner group. And your an instructor?

Oh ya, I witnessed this guy's driving during one of those de's. He did passive-aggressive maneuvers like over braking hard during a sweeper leading on to a straight just to screw with me.

My name is Keith Kuchler. Let me know when you attend a race so I can stay away.

[wildcat077]

Most clubs offer a race school from which you must graduate in order to get your certificate for a race licence application.They have plenty of passing drills over a three day school where there is no more point by rule right from the start ...

Best part is the race start simulations where you're grouped together with 25-30 other cars waiting for the green flag to drop
I would recommend this to anybody who drives their car on a track,even if you don't have immediate plans to race,the amount of awareness you gain is priceless !

Cheers
Phil

[juanbenae]

Originally Posted by peehonix

Over 100 de's?? You still do not know how to pass??? Sounds like you need to go back to the beginner group. And your an instructor?

Oh ya, I witnessed this guy's driving during one of those de's. He did passive-aggressive maneuvers like over braking hard during a sweeper leading on to a straight just to screw with me.

My name is Keith Kuchler. Let me know when you attend a race so I can stay away.

oh snap! no he did'int!!!

so, it sound like a lemons environment may be more suited to the OP's approach at this time?

I appreciate all the work instructors do for the DE/track driving community with their commitment and willingness to put themselves in harms way for the betterment of the sport and the people they may help. what I have noticed over the years is that some are doing it for the free track time, others entirely for their own ego. what's that saying? if your not that good at something coach, or teach it..... or referee it, maybe was how it went????

[aston@ultrasw.c]

Originally Posted by peehonix

Over 100 de's?? You still do not know how to pass??? Sounds like you need to go back to the beginner group. And your an instructor?

Oh ya, I witnessed this guy's driving during one of those de's. He did passive-aggressive maneuvers like over braking hard during a sweeper leading on to a straight just to screw with me.

My name is Keith Kuchler. Let me know when you attend a race so I can stay away.

I believe Mr Kutchler to be an enthusiastic and accomplished racer.

We were lucky enough to have him attend one of our DEs

Unfortunately, he did not bring his DE manners with him.

Some of the other DE participants may not have appreciated his racing skills and did a little pushing and shoving of their own.

Excusable no, understandable yes.

[Eagledriver]

One thing you could do to help with passing is to learn to drive fast off line. Practice going around a corner on the outside, leaving one car width on the inside. Practice going around on the inside with leaving a car width on the outside. When you can do this at speed you will have a much easier time passing. You just get your car to that position and drive better around the corner than your opponent. You will find that passing is actually easier when you and your opponent are novices. As you get faster and your opponent get better it becomes very difficult to complete a pass. He will drive around off line just as fast as you and you will still be behind at the exit.

-Andy

[winders]

You are not going to learn how to do a race pass at a DE. You either need to go to a race school that teaches passing or you need to go racing and get some experience.

[cstreit]

Originally Posted by peehonix

Over 100 de's?? You still do not know how to pass??? Sounds like you need to go back to the beginner group. And your an instructor?

Oh ya, I witnessed this guy's driving during one of those de's. He did passive-aggressive maneuvers like over braking hard during a sweeper leading on to a straight just to screw with me.

My name is Keith Kuchler. Let me know when you attend a race so I can stay away.

One man's over-braking is another man's "playing it safe".

100 or 1000 DE's still do not teach passing under race conditions. I think Aston is playing it cautious and I think that admitting you still have more to learn is a good quality in a DE instructor.

I've been racing wheel to wheel for 15 years with numerous championships under my belt and I still seek help and advice every weekend. In fact the more experienced you get, the harder it is to get help.

[aston@ultrasw.c]

The challenge of racing is being fast off line as well as on line.

You must leave a car's width plus one inch if another car is alongside.

So practice turning in, not from the edge of the track but leave a car's width plus one inch on the outside.

Also turn in as normal but leave a car's width plus one inch on the inside, at the apex.

You can do this all day at a DE without bothering anyone.