Most common cause for Green group crashes?

[ted]

Also annoying and mb partially to blame for green students not driving the correct line.
Is that they are following other green drivers that for the most part are not on the correct line.
How many times have you been instructing and you have to tell your student don't do what the car in front of you is doing.
Can be very misleading to a first time green driver that naively thinks others in his group know what they are doing.
monkey see monkey do.

[Charles Freeborn]

Originally Posted by grendiers

Regardless of groups, I find that the most annoying part of DE, is when you're in a parade. I'm not the fasted in my old 944, but, the car does well in corners, and if there is someone not doing a point-by the entire session, well, grrrrrrrr! They fly on the straights, and that's that. I haven't seen any accidents during this scenario the last six years, but, the potential is there.

This is when you pull off and let the steward know there's a "king of the road" on track. Or politely have a conversation with an organizer between sessions. They should be giving that driver a passing flag at the turn stations. If they ignore it they'll get black flagged and brought in for a chat. NEVER confront the driver directly.

[JeremyD]

Here is my take - been doing this for years - #1 Richard the 48 hours of Sebring crashfest is a race - there are very few crashes in the advanced solo portion of that event. And in the years prior to this year - it's been the cup car group that's been playing bumper cars.

In the green group - you get spins and crashes when the laws of physics are broken. Fortunately/Unfortunately - the new cars are SO capable and their electronic nannies are so competent that some of these folks think they are Mario Andretti because they can produce sub 2:30 laps at Sebring. The problem is when they build up speed and do something stupid that can't be saved by electronic nannies. The other contributor is the speed of the cars - one thing to be doing 90 and spin - whole different ballgame when you are doing 120.

My first response to a student when I feel the electronic nannies kick in - is What just happened? If they can't immediately tell me what happened we will be slowing down for a while.

[txhokie4life]

ignorance and/or courage is greater than skill

[gliding_serpent]

I have seen green students do things like disable traction control and spin themselves off the track due to power oversteer. Seems to be the most common (major) newbie mistake. Cars with lots of power and drivers with minimal concept of how to control it due to a reliance on traction control to do it for them. Add that to high torque, low gears, and red mist, and you have a spin out exiting a low speed corner.

Intermediate and advanced students tend to go off mid corner, or turn exit. With comfort comes pushing the limits, and sometimes they just run out of talent when things go beyond the limit. Hard to practice countersteer in real life (the benefit of slalom). In my opinion these folks get in the most trouble, as they push the limits, have something to prove, and are still developing advanced skills.

Advanced drivers suffer the same problems as the above students, but they push the limits more often, and save more often... But once in a while things can get away from them. These folks often wnd up racing and getting into more complex situations, including rubbing and last minute avoidances, which can cause problems. Thry are better drivers, but tend to live on the edge more, which has risks.

The other advanced driver has little to prove and just runs fast with high awarness. They know better than to go 10/10 all the time and are safe hpde drivers, and a pleasure to run with. They are often the instructors, and for good reason.

[bpu699]

Well... Found my own answer...

At the track Friday, driving really well I think, and got signed off to solo...

Somewhat tired by the third session...

930 was doing great. The handling of this thing still surprises me... You can take corners really well... Instructor mentioned my 930 seems better than most, with a much less peaks power curve... Was passing newer cars at one point, which surprised me. Driving on kumho asx tires, which are pretty darn good...

So, anyway...

Doing well in the green group, somehow managing to stay on track with much newer cars. Not really trying to be faster, but I think you subconsciously do everything you can to keep up with the car in front of you...

Went into a hairpin turn, didn't slow down enough. Taking the turn, rear tires started sliding right into and over the rumble strips.

Counter steered. Really didn't want to go over the strips, as I think that was grass...and pretty sure it would spin...

Let off the gas a bit... Car got traction and started to fish tail the other way...

Counter steered... And it settled out of it and went straight....

Not sure exactly what I did in the moment, but seemed to work out...

Spent the rest of the session waving everyone by...


So, my risk for wiping out in the green group? Fatigue, and trying to keep up with newer cars that have way more gizmos than my skills can manage

[JohnJL]

Originally Posted by bpu699

Out of curiosity, for those who have been doing this a long time... how many crashes involve accidents where cars crash into each other? How rare is that with HPDE?

In the 2-3 HPDE sessions I have seen, each had 1-2 "accidents." Some minor damage, some totalled. But all of them were single car accidents where someone slid into an immovable object... The speeds the top groups manage to attain are pretty notable. At the milwaukee mile most drivers barely manage to hit 100mph as a top speed. There was an accident I saw where a vette hit the wall, and the driver thought he was hitting 140mph in the straights/turns... Thats some serious speed, to be in a vette with a harness bar...

How many are car-to-car incidents in HPDE? 1%?

I love driving my car at HPDE (addictive, I know). But my goal is never top speed. Whats the point? All the fun is in the turns... I would be scared silly to drive a street car at 150mph... Maybe its just me, the risk/reward curve is well past its peak at that point... How much more fun are you going to have at 150mph that you cant have at 110? And the level of risk is likely exponential...

I have done maybe 100 track days over the past 10 years in Australia, Canada, the US and Europe, I have never seen porsche-on-porsche violence at any DE event. Its always been spins into walls or trees.

Early in the day it seems equipment failures (waterpumpers dropping fluid or the good cars dropping oil) or heroics.

Mid-day seems the safest.

After 2:00 mental acuity drops off and people get sloppy. Tires start getting old, so there is another rash of spins and episodes.

Last session seems OK...the wankers have already crashed out or quit, those left want to get some last smiles in but want to bring it home safe.

[puddy]

Originally Posted by bpu699

Well... Found my own answer...

At the track Friday, driving really well I think, and got signed off to solo...

Somewhat tired by the third session...

930 was doing great. The handling of this thing still surprises me... You can take corners really well... Instructor mentioned my 930 seems better than most, with a much less peaks power curve... Was passing newer cars at one point, which surprised me. Driving on kumho asx tires, which are pretty darn good...

So, anyway...

Doing well in the green group, somehow managing to stay on track with much newer cars. Not really trying to be faster, but I think you subconsciously do everything you can to keep up with the car in front of you...

Went into a hairpin turn, didn't slow down enough. Taking the turn, rear tires started sliding right into and over the rumble strips.

Counter steered. Really didn't want to go over the strips, as I think that was grass...and pretty sure it would spin...

Let off the gas a bit... Car got traction and started to fish tail the other way...

Counter steered... And it settled out of it and went straight....

Not sure exactly what I did in the moment, but seemed to work out...

Spent the rest of the session waving everyone by...


So, my risk for wiping out in the green group? Fatigue, and trying to keep up with newer cars that have way more gizmos than my skills can manage

I'm glad you were able to gather it up and carry on unscathed! Does the PCA operate the same in USA as it does in Canada? Up here you start in green, then yellow both with instructors, then to white with no instructors.

My first full event as a signed off white driver was on a frosty October morning sent out first in the morning to clean the water and ice off the track, was nerve wracking at first but took it easy and had fun and the rest of the weekend was awesome.

I've done 6 or 7 DE events in my current car and have had 2 similar minor incidents on track while driving on my own, both times things worked out fine after having loss of traction on rear wheels. Got lucky I guess. Both were my fault, 1 time going in to a fast sweeper after a long fast straightaway, was trying a new approach to the corner and didn't get whoa'd down enough and lost traction, applied a little brake & steering and got things gathered up and carried on. Another time getting braver going into Mosses' corners and got sliding a bit and a tiny amount of brakes & steering saved me again. I'm having so much fun I wish I could do it every weekend!

[glenndeweirdt]

Interesting thread. Of course the most common place for track accidents is in the paddock. I think our (PCA Chicago Region) attrition rate is about 1% for all groups. I agree there is very little car-car contact and most incidents occur with pesky solid objects like trees and Armcos. That attrition rate goes a little higher at RA where the Kink eats GT3s like a kid gobbles Skittles. But that is fodder for another thread.

We just had our Novice Day and I don't think there was even a spin or 4 wheels off in the novice/green group. Couple of spins in the Instructor group, however!

[bpu699]

Originally Posted by glenndeweirdt

Interesting thread. Of course the most common place for track accidents is in the paddock. I think our (PCA Chicago Region) attrition rate is about 1% for all groups. I agree there is very little car-car contact and most incidents occur with pesky solid objects like trees and Armcos. That attrition rate goes a little higher at RA where the Kink eats GT3s like a kid gobbles Skittles. But that is fodder for another thread.

We just had our Novice Day and I don't think there was even a spin or 4 wheels off in the novice/green group. Couple of spins in the Instructor group, however!

Blackhawk or autobahn?

My day was at Blackhawk. Were you there?

[glenndeweirdt]

Yes, Blackhawk Farms. I drive the Blue Cayman #76 in the Instructor 1 run group. My student was in Novice group 2 with a yellow Honda S2000.

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

Quite a while back, I was in ground school for DE. There were about 50 of us, I think, and the chief instructor told us that chances were that one or two of us would damage our car. Which says to me that odds of newbies doing something to their car was on the order of 2-3%.

I believe one person did damage their car during that event, but they were new to the area and not new to tracking cars, and it was a mechanical problem (oil leak) that put them into the wall at moderately-low speed.

I went four-off at one point; I found myself saying words that the chief instructor told us we would say: "I can save it!" When I realized that, I just straightened the wheel and took the car off in the generous run-off zone.

My experience at Club Races is rather different. I volunteered at a number of the early races here in Northern CA, and there was quite a bit of carnage--most of it of the single-car variety.

--DD

[glenndeweirdt]

The funniest (and most correct) quote I have heard from a Chief Driving Instructor prior to a HPDE event was "Gentlemen (ladies were not present), there is nothing we are going to do today that will add value to our vehicles."
This is an expensive and risky hobby (addiction).

[sugarwood]

Originally Posted by Dave at Pelican Parts

I went four-off at one point; I found myself saying words that the chief instructor told us we would say: "I can save it!" When I realized that, I just straightened the wheel and took the car off in the generous run-off zone.
--DD

So, you are not supposed to try to correct if you're in the grass? Just let the car roll to a stop in the grass, provided there is clearance? Why? B/c you risk trying to drive back onto the track and getting hit by another car?

[JeremyD]

You tend to over correct (and have limited traction in the grass) - if you get the car back on the track - you tend to catch a wheel and will shoot across the track - sometimes into traffic or worst case scenario, into the inside wall.

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

Basically, I came into a corner and blew the braking point badly. I turned in and things did not happen the way I desired them to. My thought "I can save this!" was while I was on the pavement, fighting for control. I remembered the advice of the Chief Instructor, and stopped trying to fight the car.

That meant letting it go four off, so that I could then slow the car and actually control it.

--DD

[wayner]

Two things that seem to have gone missing from instructor repertoires that I've noticed compared to 10 years ago when air cooled cars were more common on track at DE events:

1) Get your braking done early, and in a straight line. Then accelerate towards the apex.
(Carrying cornering speed seems to be more of a focus now)

2) Two feet down if you get into trouble on track, (a mid corner spin or sideways action for instance)

Was this flawed thinking?
Is it just the newer instructors lacking the early car perspective?
Is there a better (safer for those with limited skills) way?

[bpu699]

Originally Posted by glenndeweirdt

Yes, Blackhawk Farms. I drive the Blue Cayman #76 in the Instructor 1 run group. My student was in Novice group 2 with a yellow Honda S2000.

Will try to say hi at the next blackhawk event in June... I was with Mark in the black/straked 930 Group 1... He was in a 1987 g50 carrera...


I don't recall any crashes/damage during the event, though I missed the last run of the day... I believe there was a maserati that broke down, a couple cars that spun, and a BMW that was leaking gas by the bucketful...

That was about it...

Bo

[RichardNew]

At some point everyone go infatuated with trail braking. That's caused a lot of problems. Most of us need to get the braking done in a straight line. We're not racing. And, most of us aren't that good.

Everyone needs to know when to give up and just coast off course. Turn 16 at Sebring is a good example. A lot of hero drivers get 2 wheels off and try to save it. They inevitably just hit the inside wall. They had acres of grass on the outside of the turn. They should have used it.

They just thought they were good enough to save it. They weren't.

Richard Newton
Track Day Primer

[Charles Freeborn]

All true - too much information for the beginners. I think studying a track on youtube before you've driven it is pretty much pointless. Watching your own video after runs is helpful, though. Same goes for advanced techniques like trail braking, left foot braking, etc. The internet makes it look easy, but in fact is un-necessary in a DE setting. It also takes some looking to find a club that has like minded drivers. I've culled the herd down to 2 here in my area where we all go out and have fun without any ego nonsense. The club I mostly drive with has 2 HPDE groups. Lower (where I drive) that's all street cars with drivers that have graduated out of the school, and upper, or Test and Tune. That's where all the racers drive. It's a good system.