Most common cause for Green group crashes?

[sugarwood]

Board is a little slow, so I thought I'd throw this one out there.
Curious if you seasoned guys have noticed any common themes.

[Sicklyscott]

Besides ego?

I'm in green...looking to learn from this thread.

[Charles Freeborn]

My observation has been that novices that get in trouble out there are usually driving over their heads - meaning they're trying to go to fast too soon. Take your time, get to know the track, your car, how it behaves and listen to your instructor and it will all be fine. Oh, and don't overthink it, get a good nights sleep and hydrate... a lot...
One more thing - pay attention to the corner workers and flags. Really important.

[manbridge 74]

ESO: Equipment Superior to Operator.

[Trackrash]

It used to be the red group crashed the most.

A couple of changes of late. It used to be in PCA you couldn't do a DE until you had done several AXs. Now anyone can buy a Cayman S and take it directly to the track.

[puddy]

I think a lot of people bring their bad street habits to the track. There's a lot of terrible drivers out there and some of them have the means to buy Porsches. I was at a DE event last year when I was green, it rained hard off and on. We had 1 or 2 cars per session that went off the track. Just people pushing their cars beyond their cars limits and their skill levels.

[Cajundaddy]

I don't see many crashes in Green group. They all have instructors and "good" instructors keep their students reeled-in and on the track surface. In rare cases a novice driver will go too fast too soon attempting to chase a faster car before they are consistently hitting their marks. Most incidents involving contact tend to be intermediate drivers with some skill in SoCal. Ego takes over and it ends badly. It does not happen very often with PCA here though.

Humble drivers who demonstrate high safety awareness, good car control, and cooperation with instructors and other drivers bring their cars home intact.

[RichardNew]

Most of the crashes here in FL are with the advanced group. The worst time is the last advanced run group of the day. I won't go on the track with that group.

A lot of the advanced folks think they're racers. They certainly tear up a lot of equipment.

The worst carnage happens at Sebring with the 48 Hour Crashfest at Sebring every spring.

In all of these cases it's testosterone. And lack of judgement.

Richard Newton
Car Tech Stuff

[stownsen914]

I've been driving on the track for 25 years and instructing for 20+ years, mostly with PCA in the northeast. In my experience, crashes in novice groups are pretty rare. Frankly it's hard to crash if you are driving sensibly and following your instructor's advice. I guess there may be some bad instructors, but from what I've seen, most PCA groups are pretty rigorous in vetting instructors, and the instructors are good enough to keep novice students out of trouble. I've heard some other groups instructors are less rigorous in choosing instructors, but I don't have any evidence to support that.

Most incidents happen in the intermediate and advanced groups, from what I've seen. If a novice student is driving over his/her head enough to crash, then shame on the instructor for letting it get to that point!

I have seen a few mechanical failures over the years that resulted in accidents, but my anecdotal "evidence" tells me that's not very common.

Scott

[Quinlan]

I agree it is very rare to have an actual crash. When the occasional spin happens it seems it is often due to either the student trying to chase a faster car/driver (as was said above), or the student is trying to pull away from, or keep in front of, a faster car/driver that has come up behind him.
I think the vast majority of people who track cars would qualify as "type A" individuals, so the competitive nature is hard to keep in check.

Unless there is a weather factor or fluid on the track, a spin or crash when the student and instructor are away from traffic is very very rare.

[bpu699]

Out of curiosity, for those who have been doing this a long time... how many crashes involve accidents where cars crash into each other? How rare is that with HPDE?

In the 2-3 HPDE sessions I have seen, each had 1-2 "accidents." Some minor damage, some totalled. But all of them were single car accidents where someone slid into an immovable object... The speeds the top groups manage to attain are pretty notable. At the milwaukee mile most drivers barely manage to hit 100mph as a top speed. There was an accident I saw where a vette hit the wall, and the driver thought he was hitting 140mph in the straights/turns... Thats some serious speed, to be in a vette with a harness bar...

How many are car-to-car incidents in HPDE? 1%?

I love driving my car at HPDE (addictive, I know). But my goal is never top speed. Whats the point? All the fun is in the turns... I would be scared silly to drive a street car at 150mph... Maybe its just me, the risk/reward curve is well past its peak at that point... How much more fun are you going to have at 150mph that you cant have at 110? And the level of risk is likely exponential...

[Charles Freeborn]

Most novice groups have speed limits. With our club the limit on the first session is 85. Then it goes up to 100 for the rest of the day. As said, there's no point to much more than that as you don't learn anything useful.

[puddy]

In my 1st year of PCA DE events last season at Mosport, I saw a bunch a crashes of varying degrees, each event had at least 1 incident, some had 5 or 6 incidents. I believe the only incident that involved more than 1 car was an oil spill that two cars wiped out on, 1 car got wrecked the other just spun around. Thats my biggest fear in these events, you can do everything right but something out of your control like an oil spill can ruin your day/car/life.

[Charles Freeborn]

Originally Posted by puddy

In my 1st year of PCA DE events last season at Mosport, I saw a bunch a crashes of varying degrees, each event had at least 1 incident, some had 5 or 6 incidents. I believe the only incident that involved more than 1 car was an oil spill that two cars wiped out on, 1 car got wrecked the other just spun around. Thats my biggest fear in these events, you can do everything right but something out of your control like an oil spill can ruin your day/car/life.

Seriously? There's something very wrong if there is that level of destruction. I'd notify PCA HQ.

Here in the PNW where it rains A LOT we'll have track days where there are a handful of spins, the occasional off and very rarely someone into a wall. Practically never is there car on car action. On dry days it is very common to have a spin or two, maybe an off, but no damage of any kind.

[ted]

Green group crashes b/c the driver has not learned car control skills before driving in traffic?
Or are they just too distracted with spatial relationships compared to single car AX?
At an AX learn car control before learning to drive in traffic.
A green AX driver may spin at the end of a straight b/c he for first time got the turn onto the straight correctly and now with extra speed used his old brake reference point and could not make the end of straight turn.
Ego or the he just made that turn so I can too mentality.
Meanwhile its driver dependent and you dont know what tires etc are on the car you are trying to copy.

[sugarwood]

Originally Posted by RichardNew

The worst carnage happens at Sebring with the 48 Hour Crashfest at Sebring every spring.

Got any good videos?

[wayner]

Two things that I would think about:

1) Good instructors will get you more focussed on good lines and technique rather than speed or getting in over your head.

2) There are fewer instructors familiar with air cooled cars now. Be the expert on ensuring that your braking is down in a straight line, and get it done early.

The only green group crash that I am familiar with happened going on to a straight and the driver suddenly lifted at corner exit for some reason before he was straightened out and that caused his car to go around.

[puddy]

Originally Posted by Charles Freeborn

Seriously? There's something very wrong if there is that level of destruction. I'd notify PCA HQ.

Here in the PNW where it rains A LOT we'll have track days where there are a handful of spins, the occasional off and very rarely someone into a wall. Practically never is there car on car action. On dry days it is very common to have a spin or two, maybe an off, but no damage of any kind.

I should clarify not all incidents were wrecks in green run group, it's pretty mixed between all the run groups.

I think the instructors I've had have been amazing and the events were very well organized.

[Cajundaddy]

A "lot" of incidents at an event suggests that the event has gotten out of control. I quietly choose to run with different event organizers who put safety first. In PCA SoCal, car to car contact is damn rare at the DE level. I have seen several Green group cars get a corner wrong and load their car with dirt but car contact or hitting hard stuff? Approaching zero incidents.

Rather than focus on the rare bad news, I suggest focusing on the good news. A DE with a skilled instructor can teach you a ton about car control that will make you a safer and more skilled driver every day on the street. Learn to put the car exactly where you want it, and learn where to keep things reeled-in and where you can push the performance envelope safely. Good luck!

[grendiers]

Regardless of groups, I find that the most annoying part of DE, is when you're in a parade. I'm not the fasted in my old 944, but, the car does well in corners, and if there is someone not doing a point-by the entire session, well, grrrrrrrr! They fly on the straights, and that's that. I haven't seen any accidents during this scenario the last six years, but, the potential is there.