76 911S value - non porsche motor

[mattt67]

I am considering listing my 76 911S later this spring here in Michigan. Previous owner had a full glass out re-paint and had a 2498cc Bergmann motor installed. Has original 915 trans. No body rust thanks to galvanized body. Interior is rough and would need to be restored, dash is cracked and has plastic dash cover.

Looking for approx value as I cannot find anything similar with this type of engine.

Thanks in advance for any feedback you can provide. Matt

Matt

[fxdp]

i cant valuate that ....but i like it )

[Andy Somogyi]

Looked up that engine, and it’s basically a drag race VW engine, not going to last long, certainly not with iron cylinders.

It’ll cost you about $10,000 to put a 2.7 in there, or about $5000 for a Subaru swap if you do all the work yourself, best case.

It’s a nice looking car, but hopped up type-1 VW engines are basically hand grenades with the pin pulled, it’s simply a matter of when they’ll detonate.

A nice G series 911 sells for about $35K, so this one is worth maybe $20k.




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[plexiform]

Nice looking car. Deserves a proper engine. Here is a link to a very good complete 3.0L ready to go. I know because it's mine and is currently at a very reputable shop in LA.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-used-parts-sale-wanted/1022962-complete-3-0l-sc-engine.html

[fxdp]

Subaru swap for 5k ? ...jeez that seems low ?

[Andy Somogyi]

Originally Posted by fxdp

Subaru swap for 5k ? ...jeez that seems low ?

That’s about what it’s costing me, actually less than that.

But I’ve got a mill, lathe, welder to make all the custom parts, plus I’m making my own ECU and electronics.





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[fxdp]

sounds awesome good luck with the project sorry to go off topic

as far as the 76 911 looks like its in really nice shape when i saw the picture from behind the wheel i was like ...yea boy )

i wonder if you were to sell the engine out of it how much of the selling price could be recovered

[75 911s]

The engine is a major negative. The car looks really clean. I'd say 22k to the right buyer. Forget a 2.7, find a solid 3.0. And then you have a fast, nice and reliable driver. A 30k car at that point, maybe more.

[Unobtanium-inc]

I've looked at lots of Porsches that have VW motors and the owners never understand that the motor has 0 value, doesn't matter what you did to it or how well it runs, a VW motor in a Porsche is worthless. The car basically gets valued at the same value as it would without a motor. The reason being that the % of Porsche guys that can stomach a VW motor in a Porsche is very very small, so most of the guys looking at a car like this are already factoring in the cost of a Porsche motor. I'm not making judgements on running a VW motor, just stating the reality of the feedback I've gotten trying to sell many a car like this one.

I'd put a value on this car as mid teens.

---Adam

[Matt Monson]

I’d start by pulling the engine and putting it on Samba. I bet it cost $10-12k to build and you can probably get half that for it. From there a 76 coupe roller in that condition has got to be worth $12k or more.

I bet it drives great. A few years back I screwed up a deal on a 74 with a built type IV in it for $18,500. That’s how I ended up in my never ending 74 project. I still wish I had bought that other car.

[Unobtanium-inc]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

I’d start by pulling the engine and putting it on Samba. I bet it cost $10-12k to build and you can probably get half that for it. From there a 76 coupe roller in that condition has got to be worth $12k or more.

I bet it drives great. A few years back I screwed up a deal on a 74 with a built type IV in it for $18,500. That’s how I ended up in my never ending 74 project. I still wish I had bought that other car.

A IV motor can be sold with a Porsche, it has a higher level of acceptance.

---Adam

[mattt67]

Thanks for the great feedback and comments! Original plan 2 years ago was to drop in a 3.0 or a 3.2. However, these engines seemed to all but disappear.... and double in price. I plant to take to a couple of local shops to see if they have any options.
--Matt

[Andy Somogyi]

Originally Posted by mattt67

Thanks for the great feedback and comments! Original plan 2 years ago was to drop in a 3.0 or a 3.2. However, these engines seemed to all but disappear.... and double in price. I plant to take to a couple of local shops to see if they have any options.
--Matt

There’s tons and tons of 3.0 and 3.2 engines around. The problem is because of parts speculators, there’s no real concept of a market value for them.

Everyone that has one for sale is under the (false) impression that they can ask any insane price they want, and if they hold out long enough, a miracle buyer will come along and pay $15,000 or whatever crazy figure they ask for it.

There are plenty available, it’s just none of them are selling because of they crazy prices asked for them.

So we have a huge stockpile of parts just basically sitting there.

My advise is if you want to sell it, you will NEVER recover your money if you put a Porsche engine it, never. If you did ALL the work yourself, it would cost about $10,000 minimum to put in a 2.7.

Even then, it will not have much interest to the investor and purist types who want numbers matching all original blah blah blah...

I think you’ve basically got 3 options:

(1) sell it the way it is, probably with maybe $20,000

(2) keep the car, drive it and enjoy it the way it is.

(3) keep the car and swap in a different motor, but do so with the intent of keeping the the car.

I mean, right now, you’ve pretty much got what I have, a 76 Porsche 912 that is, a Porsche with a VW engine (mine came from the factory with a VW bus engine). With a cam and carbs, the VW engines aren’t bad, probably comparable to an early 911T performance wise. It’s not a bad driver.


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[Nukar sales]

A 2.5 vw built properly is very relatable engine these days not like 20 years ago the market is full of after market vendors cases,cranks ,rods, heads, and just about anything else I bet your engine makes more h.p. than a 2.7 and it's half the weight. I,m not a big fan of vw,s don,t get me wrong it's just the truth. Nice car though,lee.

[Andy Somogyi]

Originally Posted by Nukar sales

A 2.5 vw built properly is very relatable engine these days not like 20 years ago the market is full of after market vendors cases,cranks ,rods, heads, and just about anything else I bet your engine makes more h.p. than a 2.7 and it's half the weight. I,m not a big fan of vw,s don,t get me wrong it's just the truth. Nice car though,lee.

High powered VW may be OK in a drag race but they fundamentally don’t have the cooling capacity to be used for any length of time. It’s basic physics — internal combustion is a heat pump. At theoretical peak efficiency, 30% of the fuel energy is converted to useful mechanical energy to the crank, 30% to heating the exhaust, and 30% must be dissipated through the cooling system.

A Porsche flat-6 has nikasil cylinders — about five times the heat transfer of cast iron. Plus their cylinder surf area is about double that of a VW. Porsche heads have about 3 times the cooling area as VW heads. Even with all this, Porsche still determined that it needed oil cooling via a front radiator.

Internally, Porsche engines are rock solid with a 7 main bearings crank, whereas VW has a floppy as a noodle 3 main bearing crank (the front doesn’t count).

Porsche engines are designed for performance and reliability, whereas VW engines were designed to be cheap to make, and easy to maintain with minimal tools. Completely different engineering goals.

The point is modified, high powered VW simply can’t last very long, unlike a Porsche engine.

If you keep that in mind, just drive it until it the engine detonates, then get another. That’s the advantage of a VW, they’re cheap and easy to build.


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[Unobtanium-inc]

Originally Posted by Andy Somogyi

There’s tons and tons of 3.0 and 3.2 engines around. The problem is because of parts speculators, there’s no real concept of a market value for them.

Everyone that has one for sale is under the (false) impression that they can ask any insane price they want, and if they hold out long enough, a miracle buyer will come along and pay $15,000 or whatever crazy figure they ask for it.

There are plenty available, it’s just none of them are selling because of they crazy prices asked for them.

So we have a huge stockpile of parts just basically sitting there.

My advise is if you want to sell it, you will NEVER recover your money if you put a Porsche engine it, never. If you did ALL the work yourself, it would cost about $10,000 minimum to put in a 2.7.

Even then, it will not have much interest to the investor and purist types who want numbers matching all original blah blah blah...

I think you’ve basically got 3 options:

(1) sell it the way it is, probably with maybe $20,000

(2) keep the car, drive it and enjoy it the way it is.

(3) keep the car and swap in a different motor, but do so with the intent of keeping the the car.

I mean, right now, you’ve pretty much got what I have, a 76 Porsche 912 that is, a Porsche with a VW engine (mine came from the factory with a VW bus engine). With a cam and carbs, the VW engines aren’t bad, probably comparable to an early 911T performance wise. It’s not a bad driver.


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Everyone loves to tell you what a motor is worth. I had a 930 Turbo motor a few years ago, running in a 72 Targa. Everyone said it's worth $25,000+
Well, guess what, after it sat on the market for a year, I got $14,500 for it. Everyone, remember them, said I sold it too cheap. Guess I should have held it for 2 years....or forever, if you never sell it, you can value it however you want!

---Adam

[Macroni]

This is a "keep your eye out" situation. Create a budget and keep your eye out for a motor. Do not go below a period correct size of 2.7L or bigger than a 3.2L. This will be a great car for someone.....

Here is an example...
1976 911 S with 89 3.2 - new mid year to drive and improve mildly

[Matt Monson]

Agree with Macroni. This car has great potential, though I bet it’s pretty fun just as it sits.

[Macroni]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

I bet it’s pretty fun just as it sits.

Yes, but it just doesn't feel right; in the way I cringe at an LS or Suby application....

It's not a kind power-train solution to what appears to be a very nice representation.

[Andy Somogyi]

Originally Posted by Macroni

Yes, but it just doesn't feel right; in the way I cringe at an LS or Suby application....



It's not a kind power-train solution to what appears to be a very nice representation.

The problem with most engine swaps is they’re done horribly badly, especially the small block Chevy swaps, so they give swaps a bad name.

Take a look at Mike’s 912 swap here , it’s a brilliantly done 912 swap. I’m in a similar boat to the OP. But I can’t afford a 2.7 engine and build, would cost upwards of $10.000.

I’ve got a 76 912, and I worked out the numbers: it would cost me more the build the existing VW bus engine up to 2.7 performance level than it would cost to build and swap in a real 2.7.

So swaping in a Subie motor, but going to massive pains to make it look and feel period correct. And they’ll be no ****ing radiator in my trunk! I’m making sure everything is as stealth as possible. Even found a cam that has almost the identical profile to the 356 super 90 cam, so going for a very similar engine feel and sound.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/488187-help-me-style-beat-up-old-912-a-16.html




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