Nobody really knows what the failure rate is. Could be 5, could be 10. At best everyone is making a guess. But whatever it is, it's a risk and it's a 100% failure rate when it happens to you. What % of houses burn down? Less than 1%, yet everyone buys home insurance.

Point is, 996s have a bad reputation because everyone says oh IMS, stay away. When in fact the response should be, oh 996, yeah whatever you buy it for, add $2500 to change the IMS. And the cost of it will be returned more or less at full value when the car is sold since the same calculation will be made in reverse by a potential buyer. I always get a kick out of people who spend $10K on mods, but freak out over doing the IMS.

I agree with most of your logic, however A lot of us aren’t risk averse. I’m gonna offer you $2000 less on your car because you haven’t done it, and then do it whenever I need a clutch.

My Boxster had a warranty replacement engine at 25k. I think it was 58k when I sold it. I never once considered an IMS for it.

Look no further than the 356 market.

There are a lot more "older guys" than you can imagine !

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-marketplace-discussion/1034036-356-rust-bucket-4.html

This was taken at a 356 Registry holiday, that's me standing, literally, in a sea of gray!

---Adam
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1568424754.JPG

^^^

And 100% lilly white gray, it looks like. The brothas and sistas, Asians, and Latinos don't like 356s?!?!

Haha Colonel Sanders too !

Hope I'll still be enjoying my G50 ;) at that ripe old age !

I bet 40 years ago the PCA was nearly 100% white folk. In my experience most 356 owners still are.

I guess that's what they mean by "White Privilege"...

I wouldn't be surprised if we have seen the hayday of air-cooled pricing. It might be that the Gen X'ers have all or mostly scratched that itch and the prices may settle in and just hang and maybe slowly decline as the supply and demand get closer to one another.

Once the hedge fund managers find another singer to flaunt to one another that may also help cool air-cooled prices as well.

If Singer sales and other high-end builder sales are an indication of where we are headed then I would say quite the opposite as they are not slowing

I think sales are slowing due to a lack of quality product along with quality product asking too much.

I still know of a lot of people looking but nothing catches their interest.

For $50K you can get a 964 or a 991.

The hip cool Porsche kids here would rather slice an arm off than drive a water cooled Porsche of course. But for the other 95% of buyers, not sure how many are willing to pay more for a 30 year old vs a 5 year old 911.

For $50k you can get a 964 coupe needing $20k or more in work. The solid well sorted cars start at $70k unfortunately. The new cars are great. Easy to drive and have a lot of creature comforts. Most of the ones I drive I find boring since you need to be doing triple digits to start having fun. My 981 BGTS is a blast for $50k. Closest experience to the older cars although I would sell it long before I sold an Air-cooled.

That’s total crap. I had a 964. Ugly, slow...needed a tune up and valve adjustment. Sold if for 36k in 2017. Insane that people will pay 50k. My 993 is better in every f’n way than my 964. And I don’t want to hear about how much rawer it is than the 993. Utter BS! I’ve owned both and the difference is splitting hairs in terms of rawness. My 993 is a work of art visually, and drives like a damn dream. The 964 is way overvalued! You want rawness? Then buy an an SC or 3.2...not a 964.

We need another perfect storm of publicity to bring the air-cooled cars back into the global limelight.

-Coming back from a global recession
-Every car magazine on every magazine rack for an entire year with a 911 on the cover

That was what happened in 2013. A 50th anniversary for the 911

With a global recession looming once again, wait til the 60th to sell.

You must have had a piss poor 964 or a tired plain Jane. If you only sold it for only $36k in '17 then that is a given. The worst of them are selling for more and that is easily proven. Everyone wants the 964 for backdates or RS widebody conversions. Amazing what you can do with these and people recognize them as a 911. Most today look at the 993 and unless they are Porsche people have no clue what a 993 is.

I work on both 993's and 964's quite a bit, drive them all the time. There are things I like about the 993 and I have used many parts on my track build but IMO 993= ugly, boring and over complicated for no reason. I do agree they simplified and improved the 964 engine for the 993 although it doesn't stop you from improving a 964 with parts that will easily improve it over a 993. 964 = classic lines, old school feel and a far easier car to work on. Love your 993 but I wouldn't trade any of my 964's for one.

I totally agree. The 993 might be the last air-cooled and have the best technology but looks wise the 964 is the last air-cooled 911 in my book.

+964

On BAT, sure. In the real world, not really. If you have some patience $45K will buy one that needs a little work. $50K will buy one that is pretty solid. And I'm not even counting the flippers or corner lot dealers. I'm talking legit, long term owned cars with documentation.

As for 993 vs 964, I've never owned either, but I've driven both. I drove a 993 before a 964. And I had heard the same "oh a 993 blows 964s away". Then I drove a 964 and thought this is a damn fun car to drive. Maybe slightly less so than a 993. The herd mentality takes a life on its own with these things. Model X is the coolest mostest awesomest thing ever, while Model Y is junk. Then 10 years later, it reverses.

For all the talk of pure and raw and visceral and whatever other adjectives people use for air cooled cars, how come nobody knew this in the mid 2000s when these were were $15K used cars? They were the same cars, in fact they were even better cars because they were 15 years newer than today. Then one day those cars became visceral raw pure $40K cars. Funny how that works.

I'm waiting for the day when a 996 becomes raw and pure and visceral. You know it's coming sooner or later. ;)

I chuckle when people are foolish enough to argue 964 with Anthony.

Not if you look at the underside ... that tunnel and ginormous rear arm broke the 25 year lineage.

I don't think either of those define or disqualify the essence of a 911

That's a subjective question.

But looking from that point of view, even a casual observer will say it's not the same as the classic 911.

964 is trailing arm rear suspension, like every 911 before it. 993 is multi-link which is a different animal.

The 964 maintained the classic fascia and lines. The 993wasn't just a facelift. It substantialy changed the lines and the headlights.

This 993 looks aircooled to me, and also looks like it would stomp the gizzards out of most/all 964s! :)

https://images.carscoops.com/2016/07...-race-carr.jpg

Yeah that’s undoubtably bad ass. I never said I don’t like 993s

Agree the 993 is even more of a change there.

But I say adding a tunnel lengthwise and removing a tube crosswise on the chassis counts as major.

One of the top 5 best looking 911s of all time.

Totally agree, and in fact, I consider it one of the best looking cars of all time, regardless of make (best looking, as in most badassery in appearance). It literally looks like a rolling sign that reads, "Yes, I haul MUCH ass!".

I struggle to think of a single road going vehicle I would rather own.

I must be in the minority then. I think it looks like a gemballa molested an rwb in a country where abortion isn’t legal, and this was the result.

You sir, are in need of bionic glasses, and an accompanying swift kick in both the buttocks and testicles!!!

There’s more than a little similarity between the two.


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...97978917cf.jpg

You have a way with words, good sir. I agree. Very new money. :p

one is trying, the other is doing...

Did someone mention gumbella ?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1569136782.jpg

Interesting, i own both and many of both before. For me the 993 is superior as for all later models. Yes agree for the looks its personal but i do like the looks of 993 a lot. For driving pleasure the 993 is a better car overall. Being the last aircooled car should say it all, a treasure. And for the Singer look, most / at least 90 % used very tired 964’s to begin with. Porsche could not sell the 964 and went almost under, i bought a new 964 Speedster for $ 53 k. Trading a 1989 Speedster for even money yes a big misstake being a much better looking car for sure. I like 964’s a lot as i do like every aircooled 911 they just getting better over time. Amen.

Just because you "like" them better does not make them better, its all subjective. Porsche almost went under because of the global recession and their outdated inefficient manufacturing techniques.

I see the 993 as the keystone car. A bit of the air-cooled left in it and a lot of where the water cooled was heading. Driving a 993 reminds me a lot of driving my 928GTS. More a GT car than the earlier sports car. If i want that feel I drive the GTS it is a unique experience and if I wanted a GT feel IMO a superior one.

Granted there are always special models like the 993GT2 the 993RS the 964 3.6RS and the 964 3.8RS which transcend the rest of the standard road cars. For me my all time favorite 911's looks wise are the old 70's RSR's although the 964 3.8RS/RSR is a close second and the 993GT2 is nearly a tie.

All amazing cars and undeniably made a statement. I regret not buying a friends factory everything 993GT2 clone. It was midnight blue and used every factory part including the magnesium centered speedlines. A gorgeous car no doubt. But now we are talking a very different experience than a 964 or 993 N/A car.

My 964's are far from stock and for me offer a more exhilarating less GT feel than some of the equally modified 993's I have driven. Just as looks are subjective so is the feel behind the wheel. The 993 just has way too much complication for me. The SAI system OBDII and overly complicated and annoying alarm systems take away from what these cars IMO should be.

I find it interesting since most of the list of likes the average 993 owner lists is usually what turns me off about them.

There is no denying the 993 has one of the best rears of any of these cars it is the front and sides that looses it for me. Although my stomach turns every time I see a Singer. I have few friends that have them on order and one is receiving a targa soon and I hear possibly the first cab. It is bad enough the chop up perfectly good 964's to make them but the lines just don't do for me what a true RSR, 964 3.8RSR or 993 GT2 do when I look at them.

At the end of the day demand is high but numbers dictate and the 964 Coupe is on the verge of extinction so i suspect the few remaining pristine examples will be worth gold. I always liked these and started buying them in the early 2000's I wish I had the means to buy the turbo S and other rare versions when they were cheap. Or saved some of the more needy examples when they were hard to give away.