Price Drops Here there and Everywhere...It Has Begun in Earnest
 

10% drop, $50K to $45K
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-cars-sale/1037268-1990-911-c2-coupe-forest-green-metallic-green.html

This guy knows what's up. 4 price drops in a week. Smart move, get ahead of a crashing market. $49K to $43K in a matter of days of listing.
https://preview.tinyurl.com/y4tpzoc

$40K to $34K solid 15% drop
https://preview.tinyurl.com/yxjk2be

25% off
https://preview.tinyurl.com/y4vjpjb

But how can this be? These cars are visceral. I say visceral people!!!!! Like all bubbles eventually do, this one has deflated.

At one with the road surface; so much so that who needs power when one has all that visceral!!! :D

People are just getting the memo late. I haven't been able to buy much this year because everyone has been asking 2 year old prices. People are finally seeing what those of us in the business saw about 18 months ago, leveling off and sometimes dropping prices. But we are also going into winter, the worse time to try and sell a Porsche. Half the country can't drive in the winter, and everyone has holiday stuff going on.
Hopefully come Spring everyone is on the same page.

---Adam

Well this guy isn’t asking quite what he was 2 years ago for sure.

From 217 to 98 is quite a drop

https://www.pca.org/node/310309

https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/930-turbo-carrera.344030/page-193 Post #4807

wrong crowd. i tried addressing this last month .... to a chorus of boos. i stand by my prediction. 25% reduction in one year, followed by another 25% reduction next year. rare desirables may escape the reductions, to a certain degree.

If you enjoy our car and just have it for fun and do not plan to sell it, what is the problem? If my 85 Carrera went down $15,000 in value I would still have my cool Carrera. Rule of thumb, never use your car or house as an ATM .

The only people who need to panic are the guys who operate on 5% margins and have been sitting on cars for 2 years, wondering why they aren't selling.

For most of the Porsche world, you can just drive your car and enjoy, that's what I did today. What's it worth? Who knows, who cares.

---Adam
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1573425590.jpg

Buy now, this is the most these cars will ever drop !!
They aren't making more!!! Water pumpers !!
80s kids are hitting their prime earning years!!!!
These cars will all be worth $100k for a base shell !!

And yet Sugardope still owns a 911 while criticizing ownership.
Talk about irony.

I will take Sugars side on this (unless he is being sarcastic)
But in the short term I'll also take Adams side.

Im bullish in the long term, but, only for the best cars, not the marginal ones with stories.

If they are willing to carry negative equity on their daily driver, why wouldn’t they be willing to with their weekend toy?

https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-45-000-loan-for-a-27-000-ride-more-borrowers-are-going-underwater-on-car-loans-11573295400

My biggest fear is if cars become irrelevant.

Or worse, if crazy people begin chastising you for owning an antisocial object

Wayner, raising two tall middles is an easy and appropriate response for chastisement of that nature!

Better get yourself a fat bottomed girl and a case of Dura-flames.

Ahh the eternal hope of spring.....

Not sure if anyone has brought this up .... you are really and closely channeling a "well known" member here circa 2014 ... look up the threads started by PML.

Quite interesting to see how these things repeat and how some folks never change even though they are not even the same person (I think) !! :rolleyes:

PORSCHES ARE TOO EXPENSIVE AND ARE FINALLY GOING TO BE CHEAP says man every year since 1962.

The time to make money on a car is at the time of purchase.This sharp decline been on the cards since the price rise started.
2013/14 was incredible, but if you thought peak Porsche would go on forever, or believed those outfits like Trissl that pretend to have magic ball and suggest their very average inventory was 'investment grade' the joke is on you.

Price a running driving 911 right, it will sell.

I’ve been saying this since before I bought my car in 2020 ( in fact it’s why I finally bought my car in 2010

2013 was a significant anniversary for the 911
1963 to 2013 was 50 years

And EVERY car magazine regardless of persuasion, and even many lifestyle magazines on shelves every month for the entire year heralded the 911 as one of the most significant sports cars ever

Air cooled was ling enough ago that they had finally crossed the line from an old car that maybe you had in its hay day but cling on to and couldn’t afford to replace, to now a new object of desire

THE WORLD rediscovered the air cooled 911 all at once
And The US became a happy hunting ground for collectors looking for decent examples ( I. The day the US was the largest market so in 2013 the world cans shopping)


The bloom has worn off that intense marketing period of 2013
Other cars have captured imaginations

The US dollar is no longer as week in comparison to foreign currencies
So that perfect storm that lead to the buying frenzy and export markets has subsided

It’s why I bought a a 914 to keep me in the air cooled game while I planned to sell my 911
( but a messy divorce derailed my plans to complete it so I missed that window)

But
What will happen in 2023???

Prices are not actually going down, they are going up up up !!!!
The average is skewed since only the lower grade cars are selling.
Hold onto your hats people! Every day these cars become more valuable !!

Damn, you are a strange cat.

Back in the days when I was still a floor trader.... when the market got to a fever pitch in 2000 and 2001 and I would get bombarded with people telling me about their hot stocks, people who had no business "trading" we all knew the end was near.

When people are asking valuation questions on their classic or vintage cars and people are talking about them as an asset class we all know the end is near.

The real quality cars will continue to have value. We've already seen the driver quality and less than driver quality cars slip sliding away. The 930 market is a classic example. 2 years ago any driver was bringing 6 figures. Look at even the nicer driver type 930's, they're not selling anywhere near 6 figures now. Plenty of them offered in the six figures. Same thing with the 993 C4S, average cars with miles were selling near 6 figures, not anymore. However, if you have a very nice 930, low miles well documented, it can still do six figures, same with a 993 C4S in that condition. The problem is the people who paid up for just driver cars with no history and feeling the pain.

Soon they will be valued like pesos! Can’t wait to own one of every color, different 911 for every day of the month!

Even my motorcycle is air cooled, my favorite curse word? “WATER!”

I guess I'll have to own my car another 7 years in the hopes that the market will return to 2014 values.

That's kind of what I was thinking when I started the thread and my reference to the Flygskam movement.

Hope, wishing and prayer are usually not good plans. Why not just keep the car, enjoy the car and not worry about the market?

Not enough of the kids posting “ok boomer” on social media vote currently for it to come to this. If it’s in our future it’s another decade or two on. And by then I personally won’t care. Of course I professionally hope it never comes to this. I’m still a good 20 years from retirement unless something majorly changes in my fortune.

Buy now or be priced out for-EVAH.

The $ spent per visceral mile driven is up tp $9.12 and experts predict it will be north of $15 by Arbor Day.

And I do love the change in sentiment. Went from
"hell no prices aren't falling" 9 months ago, to
"well maybe prices are falling, but only on visceral-fee ones" 6 months ago
to "ok prices are falling who cares, I love my car" today.

The next shoe to drop will be dudes in their 50s/60s, just on the cusp of retirement realizing that selling now and getting $35K out of the car - that they drive once a month - is probably a good idea. The alternative is letting it sit in the garage for another 10 years, as it gathers dust and loses value. That's when the flood gates will open and prices will plunge to the bottom. It will be, as Hemmingway wrote, gradually then suddenly. First ones to list at $35K get it. Second tier will be lucky to get $30K. Third tier.....

The bottom will be whatever pricing was in 2000 adjusted for inflation. Because there is no intrinsic value added to these cars today vs 2000. It was a used car then, it's a used car now. The only difference between 2000 and 2015 was boomer** nostalgia, which has no real value once it starts fading.

** Not meant in an OK Boomer way (which while kinda funny is really stupid). Just a demographic reality.

This car is different!
Air kewld prices have reached what looks like a permanently high plateau!!!

Prices
 

Hey,Chicken Little the sky is falling.Look back at this moment in two years and your comments will seem ludicrous.I am 50 plus years into these cars and enjoy a good belly laugh at the comments.If this is your investment then run.If this is your passion then stay.Ciao Fred

A Ferrari GTO 250 has no intrinsic value, and those cars are worth trillions!!
The 911 is CHEAP. Deep value!!

Of course, these cars only go up in value.
You literally can't pay too much.
Even If you pay $750,000 for a driver level 911, it's still a great move.
Eventually, these cars will be worth infinity.
Sell all your Bitcoin and buy air cooled.

Hagerty has it partly right on why demand is going down. The latest generation of car buyers do not want old cars no matter how cool they might be. The old guys like us are at the point of thinning the collection. The younger buyers want newer cars.

I believe the reason older cars don’t have as much action is twofold. First is it true that people like the cars from their youth. So the buyers today went cars from the 70s 80s or 90s not the 30s 40s 50s and 60s.

This article reminds me of the late 80’s, when pre-WW2 cars took a price tumble. The WW2 generation started to die off, or sell as they got older. Widows were shocked at the auctions, that their husbands cars weren’t worth what their husbands had told them. Prices plummeted, with the possible exception of the top tier coach-built cars

Two, a slow barely perceptual change in generations who are moving the hobby towards the cars they are interested in. My 35 year old nephew a classic example. One day, and it will come, no one will care about a 1972 Porsche 911. Well, maybe a dozen might as tech is spoiling new drivers.
Recently had a mid-80s year old gentleman walk up to me while my cars were outside for washing. He told me mostly about when he was into cars and it was late '30s hotrods. How many are still interested in them and I don’t mean one or two people. I mean hundreds, if not thousands, who could move a market. The answer is obvious.

The target age group for most of these to be nostalgic or tied to is beginning to age out and die off for lack of a better word. Sure the market will carry on for years to come but there will continue to be fewer and fewer people from that timeline. Much like fat fendered street rods of the 80s were hot before them but have since lost their audience


Half of the people that were interested in these cars are already dead. The other half are already well into their 50s. Next time your at a car show or auction look around, you will not see any young people. Every one is 50 plus years old. My prediction is that in 20 years you won’t be able to give most classic or muscle cars away

About ten years ago my wife and I were going out for Sunday breakfast in our 1969 Corvette 427/390hp, numbers matching, M21 4 speed coupe and I opined that these cars would go the way of the Model A once the guys who had drooled over them in their youth had passed away. Then I thought for a minute and said “Why should I care? I’ll be dead.” You’ve gotta take the long term view.


1) Boomers get old, they retire, they stop driving, live in nursing homes, they die, and their Porsche nostalgia dies with them.
2) Demand drops as the Boomers age out, and fewer new people replace their evanescent Porsche demand.

But, not for air cooled !!

911 prices can only go up.
They aren't making any more, so prices can only go in one direction.
Up.
Buy now, or forever be left out.
They will be worth infinity if you wait long enough.


Your generation will not die simultaneously from a large asteroid.
You will die off, slowly, one at a time. Drop by drop.
So, why is it relevant to the topic at hand?
The long term trend can manifest into the short term.

And, rest assured, the long term trend is that fewer and fewer people are lusting after a 1946 Ford Super Deluxe Coupe.
By now, they are all dead or dying. Buyers evaporate, inventory sits longer, and eventually prices reflect that.

And before the court jester says,
"But....but....but....what that gotta do with PORSCH"

A) The cycle never stops. Nothing is immune to time.
B) This is too complicated for you. Find a new discussion.

Those that disagree should start buying up as many of these as possible.
Very limited supply out there!

In the end, when your generation is 100% dead, demand will be much lower than it was when you were alive. Won't matter how great the car was. Victorian furniture is infinitely higher quality than the disposable garbage sold at Bob's Discount. However, demand has evaporated for 17th & 18th century antiques.

But not the 911 !!
If you see a low priced car, that just means its a crappy car.
Your car will always go up and up and up

Do you think that in 2019, demand for a '32 Ford is higher or lower than it was 30 years ago?
B/c the trend is about to be broken! Infinite demand curve!

I never claimed to be Nostradamus.
I said demand for generational nostalgia items decreases over time.
I am correct. When your generation dies off, the production numbers will mean squat.
Model T, '32 Ford, '57 Chevy, Tubbed '67 Camaro......all dwindling demand over decades.
But the 911 will defy laws of physics and fly to the moon !!

It's not a zero sum game, but one clearly cannibalizes the other.
But young people aren't buying archaic watches = dying clientele = dying industry
Some reading on the watch industry and their concerns.
The theme is all the same.

Most 20s car guys are into hot hatch GTI/Golf, Evo, WRX, GM muscle, and truck culture.
Many others simply drive F-150's, Elantra, Focus, Civic, etc.
The freak outlier 20s kid who is into 993 does not mean much of anything.
But he will learn and be converted to air cooled $100k here we come!

Certain things do go out of favor Did I say they are giving them away already, right now? No, but if you have watched prices, there has been a clear and consistent downtrend for the last 10-15 years. This will only continue as people who like the '57 Chevy increasingly die off. This is not a hard concept to grasp. And it's not a new idea. Generations come and go.

How long do you have to wait for demand to disappear? Until you are dead. Get it? You represent a data point of someone who is very interested in the 911E. You are not alone. But, once you (along with your entire cohort) are dead, the demand for 911E will evaporate, just like your scattered ashes. You are the demand, so you don't get to be exempt from the very forces that create the market dynamic in the first place. You will never get a 911E for dirt cheap, but your kids might, by definition.

Look at the collector guitar market. The new generation does not even identify guitars as cool. Guitars are for old dads. Dads are not cool. DJ mixing tables are the new cool. As guitar people slowly age out, the price has been on a decline for many years. The Millennials will not be propping up the vintage guitar market when they hit peak earnings years. Before electric guitars, accordions were a very popular instrument early in the last century. Guess what vintage accordion demand looks like now compared to the peak? Limited production numbers? LOL, doesn't matter when you can't even give one away.

Anyone is welcome to call me an idiot. Not everyone can grasp that nostalgia demand is a sliding window. Think bigger. Short term blips are natural variation ebbs and flows. Longer term, history will prove you wrong. They can continue thinking the Millennials will really ramp up the demand for the Duesenberg market once they hit their prime earning years.

So, you go right on thinking that your PORSCHE can only forever go up in price forever because demand will forever rise since nursing homes will soon have track days. Oddly, anyone who has said this about their '67 Camaro is clearly a fool, yet "this time it's different" when it comes to your particular car. Yes, it is !!

Ever hear of Elvis?
Or the Elvis museum in Vegas?
Guess what, people who now go to Vegas have no idea who Elvis is.
No one cares.
Yea, Elvis museum IN VEGAS recently closed. Forever.
Make room for the new nostalgia.

Take a guess why almost every auto museum in the country is a money losing disaster.
B/c they are not air cooled museums that will rise to new levels and beyond

Guess what they said about Model T's in the 1950s ?
Today, you can't give one away.
That's b/c everyone is saving for the 911, which can only go UP UP UP

15mm Model T's built, yet it's easier to find a 911 for sale. Why is that? The bottom line is that, at some point, all the people who like these cars will ALL be dead, on the proper timeline. The are all destined for the scrap heap. Not if, but when. 50 year, 100 years, that's just details.

Production numbers don't mean squat when demand evaporates.
And guess what? 10,000 years from now, no one will want your rare 911.

There are many rare stamps and coins with VERY low production numbers.
Guess what? They are worthless now. No one wants them. Demand collapsed.

Hummels used to be worth a lot of money.
Guess what? They are worthless now. No one wants them. Demand collapsed.

So yea, every one of our cars is heading to its scrap value.
But not before hitting $1mm very soon !

In our lifetimes, we've already seen demand decline for the model T, the '32 Ford, the '57 Chevy T,... and the latest segment, the 60s muscle car, as the cruise night cohort slowly migrates to nursing homes.

Slowly, and within your lifetime, you will see demand diminish as generations die off. For the slow to understand, I used 10,000 years to emphasize the point. Demand will go down, not up, if you look at the right scale.

Eventually... You won't be able to give your "57 Chevy" away. Drive on!

Way too much time on his hands. I don’t even have time to read it.

Today
 

Sugarwood,Whatever you are smoking you should send me some.I was at Woodstock in 69.Two years ago I sold a 54 Les Paul Gibson and a 64 Mosrite Ventures one off guitar for way less than it was worth.My garage sound system is Bogen Amps with Voice of the THEATRE speakers from Fillmore East in NY.Is that worth anything?No but my shop rocks.They are tube amps.My bass amp is a Standel Super Imperial for the low tones.Hey Vaive get a life.You should buy Porsches now.One day you will be dead and the market will not matter to you anyway.I think the dirt nap is final but I bought a boat in Costa Rica for the Viking deal.Ciao This place is fun.

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Mr. Monson is correct in his assessment of The Sugarwood comment.I apologize for my dementia and ramblings.Mr. Apgar

Same

I just looked a a 3000sq ft shop space in Seattle to rent. The place looked great for me. Signs posted all over with the contact number and Email address. I wondered why no price listed. Thought I could make it work how much could it be? The agent called me with the news $9000 a month plus triple net. That price just makes a chance to play with these cars next to impossible. Im kind of ready to give um up . My new Honda Odyssey rules.

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My new shop in Pinehurst NC 28374 is at my house.It is 2100 square feet and the taxes on the house and shop is $1750 a year.House is 2800 sq.ft.The lift is going in in two weeks.Cost is $2100 installed for a 9000 lb.unit.Overhead is everything.But I am retired.I put in a 18,000 BTU split air unit with heat pump for $913 delivered bought off Amazon in August.Life is good.Ciao Me

GOOD GOD sugar!!
You need to find a date of something!!
You need somebody to talk to!!!

Sugarwood
 

Leave this poor guy alone.Ciao