1969 911 value / sand beige color

calling911 · 11-22-2006, 04:37 PM

I'm having a very difficult time understanding this year.. it seems to be a lost year for the 911.. first year of the LWB.. still has the 2.0 litre motor with aluminum heads.. but very few for sale or spoken of.. why? I don't understand this.. I know that there is a certain publication that raves about the 70 72 73 models.. and seem to have WAY too much influence on the market place in my humble opinion.. but whats going on here? I have been scouring the net for weeks to try and understand this vintage year.. and am coming up blank.

I ask this question for very selfish reasons.. I recently acquired one and am doing a down to metal restore.. my PCA should be here soon which I expect will verify the motor and trans original (911T unfortunately).. and I am trying to calculate how much I can put into the car (I am doing ALL the labor including a minor motor rebuild) and not wind up upside down on it.. My best guess on the value: a NON-CONCOURSE restore with all original parts is worth $15k minimum and maybe as high as $20k?? but no higher unless its concourse ORIGINAL.. like as in GERMAN vinyl on the seats.. GERMAN perfect dash.. etc.. am I off here?

As long as I am typing.. my original color is sand beige.. and I am having trouble understanding what is best for the car value to do here.. original color or go with a more popular color.. I happen to like sand beige but I am not sure the market place will...

Opinions?

P.S. I think ebay is a JOKE.. how people can buy a vintage 911 without carefully inspecting the rear torsion tube mounting points to the unibody and the unibody in that area itself.. BEYOND ME!! My car WAS on ebay (did not sell) but I bought it local.. I found all sorts of stuff once it was on the lift.. bought it for THOUSANDS less than the auction START price... I bought it for a FAIR price.. and the seller knows it.

BK911 · BK911's Garage

Is it a keeper? Paint it what color you like. For resale find a '69 engine and paint it the original color; originality is what's selling the long hoods these days. Or go wild and drop in a 3.6. These seem to do pretty well too. So mild or wild, nothing in-between. Hope this helped.

BTW, you are probably already upside down. Do a decent restoration and wait a few years and you may come out ahead.

Personally it sounds like you have the perfect car for a 3. something transplant. If the engine isn't original anyway, why use a 2.2? Think big. If you are going to stick with the 2.2, at least stroke it to a 2.4.

My $0.02

calling911 · 06:58 PM

I must not have been clear.. the engine is original and will be verified soon.. Nope; not even close to upside down. Not sure how you came to that concusion.. nope did my home work as far as its present condition value.. 2.2?? didn't even mention 2.2.. did I miss something? Its a 2.0 stock and probably match on the #.. and has the webers..

So anyway question stands.. although I did hear you say stock color.. I think I agree with that part.. but sand beige.. I am nervous.. this car is being done to resell... although I fear love may set in.. and if it does so be it..

BK911 · BK911's Garage

Not sure where I got 2.2 from either. Maybe one too many rum punches. I assumed upside down because one rarely even comes close after a restoration, even if the car was free.

Good luck and have fun on your restoration.

calling911 · 11-23-2006, 04:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BK911
Not sure where I got 2.2 from either. Maybe one too many rum punches. I assumed upside down because one rarely even comes close after a restoration, even if the car was free.

Good luck and have fun on your restoration.

No problem.. yeah I understand.. but I am doing the labor and leaving out my time from the accounting books.. I am trying to enjoy it. I've done this sort of work before so I know what to expect (a surprise or 2.. ).

Well; this is off topic.. wondering about the 69' value.. anyone? Bueller?

Happy Thanksgiving day.

J

coldstart · 11-23-2006, 05:30 AM

All early 911 models are great cars, even the targas

. The consensus seems to be that 911Ts with the 2.0L are slightly underpowered at 110hp and 130 lbs/ft torque compared to their 2.2L and 2.4L brothers. (140hp and 166 in the 2.4L). If you are going to rebuild a 2.0L engine, I recommend that you address the horsepower issue if you are interested in resale power. Personally, I prefer the engines that you can work and not be going 100 mph.

coldstart · 11-23-2006, 05:42 AM

Regarding value, it depends if you are selling or buying. As we are both owners, I think the 911T are seriously undervalued. You can just change a few engine internals and produce almost the same performance as an S which costs 3x more (I have the S brakes, gauges and originally had sport seats). You can make a 911T into an S with that and a few other minor changes. That said, the price tag on the S is ridiculous.

In terms of year, the 72-73 models are the most desirable given the higher hp numbers and better driveability for the novice. I couldn't put a number on the difference but I suspect that you will find that there is a substantial price differential between a 69 911T and a 72 911T.

calling911 · 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by coldstart
All early 911 models are great cars, even the targas . The consensus seems to be that 911Ts with the 2.0L are slightly underpowered at 110hp and 130 lbs/ft torque compared to their 2.2L and 2.4L brothers. (140hp and 166 in the 2.4L). If you are going to rebuild a 2.0L engine, I recommend that you address the horsepower issue if you are interested in resale power. Personally, I prefer the engines that you can work and not be going 100 mph.

I agree when it comes to vintage Porsches.. I have a 210hp Miata when I feel the need for speed.

Which no NA porsche can touch on a road course...

calling911 · 11-25-2006, 10:11 AM

Anybody else have any view points on this subject?

seventythree · 11:02 PM

A less desirable vintage will never be worth more than the more desirable, simple and clear. Any attempt to make it so will be negated by loss of originality. So, stay true to your chosen path and spend as little as possible on this restoration. Whenever possible, try to bridge the gap between little money and good results by applying more elbow grease. Just make sure you have fun in the process.

But if you really feel the urge to spend major $ and do it right, punt this one and start with another from the 72-73 range.

Finally, there are far worse things than being upside down on a vintage Porsche. Don't let that possibility take away from the fun.

PS,
And as far as a current value for a 69T, words can't even describe how subjective that would be. But if you subscribe to what I said above, who cares?

calling911 · 11-27-2006, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by seventythree
A less desirable vintage will never be worth more than the more desirable, simple and clear. Any attempt to make it so will be negated by loss of originality. So, stay true to your chosen path and spend as little as possible on this restoration. Whenever possible, try to bridge the gap between little money and good results by applying more elbow grease. Just make sure you have fun in the process. But if you really feel the urge to spend major $ and do it right, punt this one and start with another from the 72-73 range.

Finally, there are far worse things than being upside down on a vintage Porsche. Don't let that possibility take away from the fun.

PS,
And as far as a current value for a 69T, words can't even describe how subjective that would be. But if you subscribe to what I said above, who cares?

This is some excellent advise.. and I will follow it.. I planned to anyway but its helping me keep myself in check in terms of how much $$$ to put into this car.. and time.. thanks..

and now onto looking for MY car.. a 72-73..

I actually love LOOKING...

racer · 11-27-2006, 05:35 PM

Some reasons why the '69's are overlooked these days

1) Many race sanctioning bodies (historic racing) have raised their cut offs over the years. For a while 1969 and 1970 were cut-offs, now they are up to 1974 (or even newer?) for instance which does/did have an impact on values.

2) A '69T is not an exciting car. 110hp 2.0L motor. Approx 2200lb? So, not lightening quick, when compared to the 140hp E or 170hp S models and although the cars got heavier by 1973, by then a T had 140hp, an "E" 165 and as "S" 190hp

3) Well optioned cars are more often more desireable cars. In this case, well optioned "S" will lead the pricing brigade. Then E's then T's.

3B) -4spd? 5spd? "s" options? bone stock "T"? Just what exactly do you have there?

4) If you are looking to flip, and are going down to bare metal, pick a factory color that you (and others) like and go for it.

5) If you want to do it right, paint it in the original color. In my book, if I were to look for a 30 year old car, I would want it as original as possible. Paint, if redone, I prefer in the original color.

I have read that the Euro market is hungry for these cars as well. Seems Europeans must have "used up" their copies and now want "babied" american cars.

Any full 100pt restore will leave you upside down at this time. Unless its an "RS" or "R" to begin with. Even a full restore "S" would be upside down. Only the truly original, documented, low mile early cars would not leave you upside down.

calling911 · 11-28-2006, 04:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by racer
Some reasons why the '69's are overlooked these days

1) Many race sanctioning bodies (historic racing) have raised their cut offs over the years. For a while 1969 and 1970 were cut-offs, now they are up to 1974 (or even newer?) for instance which does/did have an impact on values.

2) A '69T is not an exciting car. 110hp 2.0L motor. Approx 2200lb? So, not lightening quick, when compared to the 140hp E or 170hp S models and although the cars got heavier by 1973, by then a T had 140hp, an "E" 165 and as "S" 190hp

3) Well optioned cars are more often more desireable cars. In this case, well optioned "S" will lead the pricing brigade. Then E's then T's.

3B) -4spd? 5spd? "s" options? bone stock "T"? Just what exactly do you have there?

4) If you are looking to flip, and are going down to bare metal, pick a factory color that you (and others) like and go for it.

5) If you want to do it right, paint it in the original color. In my book, if I were to look for a 30 year old car, I would want it as original as possible. Paint, if redone, I prefer in the original color.

I have read that the Euro market is hungry for these cars as well. Seems Europeans must have "used up" their copies and now want "babied" american cars.

Any full 100pt restore will leave you upside down at this time. Unless its an "RS" or "R" to begin with. Even a full restore "S" would be upside down. Only the truly original, documented, low mile early cars would not leave you upside down.

5 speed.. 901 trans I guess.. 1st is down. Should be a match when the COA gets here.. I hope. I also do not know what trim level it was.. I think the rear trim (see pics in this thread) is a non-s trim.. It looks like it had a dealer installed fog lights..

Other than that... what is there thats optional?

calling911 · 11-28-2006, 05:22 PM

Anybody else?

Whats up with the 69'? First year of the LWB... why is it the lost child? Its an easy upgrade to high HP on a rebuild.. if you want it.. but who wants to beat the snot out of thise vintage beauties? Isn't that what an 80's car is for?

914 · 05:05 AM

JP,
Keep it orginal,Unmolested porsches in the future will gain the most appreaction (sp) . Almost everyone mods them out w/engine upgrades. I passed up on a 1969e about 12 years ago,Mint condition/ultra low miles No sunroof Price $4500.00

. My current keeper is a 1970 914-6,Bone stock.Any vintage porsche factory stock is getting harder to find these days....
good Luck,914

calling911 · 11-29-2006, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 914
JP,
Keep it orginal,Unmolested porsches in the future will gain the most appreaction (sp) . Almost everyone mods them out w/engine upgrades. I passed up on a 1969e about 12 years ago,Mint condition/ultra low miles No sunroof Price $4500.00 . My current keeper is a 1970 914-6,Bone stock.Any vintage porsche factory stock is getting harder to find these days....
good Luck,914

I agree.. I would never think of an engine swap in a vintage porsche unless the original was sitting in a crate... Which I think is a cool option for these cars if you can afford to own 2 motors for it.. Rebuild it and crate it.

thanks..

I wonder if the 74-77 cars are the next cars to appreciate like the 66-73's?

calling911 · 11-30-2006, 08:03 PM

Well; my COA came today.. good news/bad news.. nothing fancy.. but the GREAT news is motor and trans are a MATCH! Sweet! I can only assume this means extra value.. perhaps as much as $15k when its resprayed its original color and the the interior is redone?

pwd72s · 12-05-2006, 10:46 PM

Offered as food for thought...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?threadid=318515

calling911 · 12-06-2006, 05:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by pwd72s
Offered as food for thought...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?threadid=318515

Yes, agreed, however, he has brown car syndrome.. sand beige is not quite that sort of brown. If that car was ANY other color it would be long gone.. if the car was ORIGINALLY any other color it would be long gone in my opinion.

I actually like the brown.. made him an offer but he declined.

BTW I think the best color on a vintage Porsche is Ivory.. CLASSIC

LakeCleElum · 06:50 AM

JP: I've been tracking '69 and '70 models for awhile. I know the '70 is different, but the prices seem about the same. I've seen 3 sell in the Pacific NW in the past year for about $10K. All were originial, unrestored and driveable. None had any real rust issues, but could use paint and interior work.

That said, I just bought a ONE OWNER '69T for $2,000....It has had the front pan already replaced, but has rust in the rear seat foot area and into the passenger side longitital.....(I know it's a lot of work, but I bought in cheap). 2nd gear is out. The engine is a very strong '71 2.2. The paint is very poor and has already been changed to black from a puke yellow.

Like you, I plan to do most of my own work and take my time. I think yours would be worth at least $15K with no rust and good paint. Keep the running gear with the car for max value. These cars are in high demand in Europe and you can bail out of the project at any time...Good luck and keep us posted.