72T Coupe

[geshaghi]

I have seen a 72T coupe, numbers matching and complete car with MFI, that looks like it has been neglected for the last few years. The car was originally aubergine, but was repainted silver some years ago with a poor quality repaint and now needs a complete paint job. Original blue plate CA car, and pans and floors look very solid, but there is rust below one of the rear window corners. Body and glass are good, with pretty even gaps throughout with the exception of the rear deck lid. Headliner is good, seats decent, needs a dash and plenty of interior sprucing up. Car has AC and York compressor is intact, and there is also an auxiliary oil cooler up front (not sure if this is an 'S' cooler or aftermarket item). The car runs, albeit a bit rough, but there is no mechanical history with the car, and I have yet to check the compression. A rather strange SS exhaust with header has been fitted to the car, without any air return to the induction, which could account for the rough running, but I'm assuming a top end will be needed fairly soon. 915 5 speed transmission is rather sloppy, but I think this is just a linkage issue as synchros seem good when the car is warm. I've attached a few photos, but the car actually looks worse in person. Any thoughts on value in the current market are appreciated.



Here's the header leading to a gargantuan stainless muffler:



Here's the oil cooler up front:

[ossiblue]

Couple of things. First, be very wary of the rust at the corners of the rear window as it is typically from seal leakage and if you see it on the outside, the inside is really ugly.
Second, that doesn't look like a front oil cooler, rather I believe it's the condenser for the AC. You can double check by looking for the hard lines from the engine to the front, underneath the passanger side. Trace the lines to see where they connect--to the oil thermostat/tank, or the AC.
From your general description, this car has a lot of potentially expensive unknowns (engine and tranny, no history of service) as well as potentially expensive knowns (paint, interior, rust issues.) I would not even consider an offer without a complete PPI and you have to be very clear on how much of a project you want to take on.

BTW, I've followed your threads as I have a fondness for the 72 coupes. What happened with the 72E in northern Ca? (slightly modified, on Craigslist.) Anything you can discuss?

[geshaghi]

Originally Posted by ossiblue

Couple of things. First, be very wary of the rust at the corners of the rear window as it is typically from seal leakage and if you see it on the outside, the inside is really ugly.
Second, that doesn't look like a front oil cooler, rather I believe it's the condenser for the AC. You can double check by looking for the hard lines from the engine to the front, underneath the passanger side. Trace the lines to see where they connect--to the oil thermostat/tank, or the AC.
From your general description, this car has a lot of potentially expensive unknowns (engine and tranny, no history of service) as well as potentially expensive knowns (paint, interior, rust issues.) I would not even consider an offer without a complete PPI and you have to be very clear on how much of a project you want to take on.

Thanks for the comments, L.J. Obviously, the car is no small undertaking. I've been watching the car for a while as it was listed on eBay about 6 months ago and sold to another buyer, but the seller had title troubles (since resolved) and couldn't deliver the car. I'm going to have a compression test done to get a sense of top end condition, but I assume that the car is not far from needing a rebuild. It does run and drive, though, which is better than many that I've seen of late, and can probably be had for less than $10,000.

Originally Posted by ossiblue

BTW, I've followed your threads as I have a fondness for the 72 coupes. What happened with the 72E in northern Ca? (slightly modified, on Craigslist.) Anything you can discuss?

I've decided to try and find a numbers matching example, or at least something that is more original, so I never looked at the 72E up north. Would be curious to hear if anyone else on the board has seen the car.

[ossiblue]

I'm always hesitant to give a price opinion on a car I haven't seen or know much about but the amount you said, under $10K, was what I was thinking I would offer after further checking. Nice to know others think alike

[gsjohnson]

I would think if the engine passes a leak down test, it would be a good buy for under 10K...10K for body. paint and bright work and another 10k in interior and trim. you'd have a real nice car.

[blau911]

Originally Posted by gsjohnson

and another 10k in interior and trim.

I don't know where you get your interiors done, but if you are paying anywhere close to $10k for that you are getting ripped off big time. Unless you plan to buy a really nice pair of correct sport seats for $5k you should be able to have your interior restored for south of $5k easy.

[geshaghi]

Originally Posted by blau911

I don't know where you get your interiors done, but if you are paying anywhere close to $10k for that you are getting ripped off big time. Unless you plan to buy a really nice pair of correct sport seats for $5k you should be able to have your interior restored for south of $5k easy.

While the interior of the car isn't horrible, it does have some needs. These include a new dash due to cracks, the seats need some clean up on the mechanisms and sliders but the vinyl is good, door pockets, new seat belts, carpet kit, vent repair, a few knobs and some clean up to the gauges and you're done. It isn't cheap, but I should be able to get the interior done for less than $10k - maybe not south of $5k, but pretty close.

[gsjohnson]

Originally Posted by blau911

I don't know where you get your interiors done, but if you are paying anywhere close to $10k for that you are getting ripped off big time. Unless you plan to buy a really nice pair of correct sport seats for $5k you should be able to have your interior restored for south of $5k easy.

Don't most of these early cars have cracked dashes? New Dash....$1200. Requires front windshield to be removed and a new seal. Plus all the incidentals to make your gauges and facing material nice. If you need a headliner, then you might as well pull all the glasses and that requires a new rear seal as well as new door opening weatherstrips. A proper German made headliner is well over a 150 bucks and most upholstery shops are getting close $500 for a headliner install. Okay, I'm now over 2500 and that is if I do the dash myself. Need seats reupholstered or door panel pockets? Want leather? How many of these cars have nice retracting door pockets? Very few and you can spend an easy $1000 to get that proper and that is finding nice used parts. If you go new, it's well over $1500. Do the quarter latches and seat hinges need replating? Need carpet? Do you have the proper radio without needless holes carved in the car? How are the rear seats?



Actually, I want the number for your parts guy and upholsterer.

[blau911]

Originally Posted by gsjohnson

Don't most of these early cars have cracked dashes? New Dash....$1200. Requires front windshield to be removed and a new seal. Plus all the incidentals to make your gauges and facing material nice. If you need a headliner, then you might as well pull all the glasses and that requires a new rear seal as well as new door opening weatherstrips. A proper German made headliner is well over a 150 bucks and most upholstery shops are getting close $500 for a headliner install. Okay, I'm now over 2500 and that is if I do the dash myself. Need seats reupholstered or door panel pockets? Want leather? How many of these cars have nice retracting door pockets? Very few and you can spend an easy $1000 to get that proper and that is finding nice used parts. If you go new, it's well over $1500. Do the quarter latches and seat hinges need replating? Need carpet? Do you have the proper radio without needless holes carved in the car? How are the rear seats?



Actually, I want the number for your parts guy and upholsterer.

Call Tony at Autobahn and get a quote. He can do the refurbishing on pretty much everything in your interior. Minor labor such as pulling and refitting your own dash can easily be done yourself. Same with door panels, door pockets etc.
The only thing you might need help with is pulling the front and rear windshields (assuming you go with a new headliner). By the way, headliners are pretty easy to install (as long as there is no sunroof). For $10k, you should just send the car to Auto International and put a "kick me" sign on your back.

[mrbeverlyhills]

Why would you ask anyone to wear a kick me sign? If you have a old 911 then you have "kick me" branded on your forehead already!

I just did an interior complete and if I ignore the cost of the sport seat cores and just allow for the recovering then the interior complete was $9,000. Tony did the seats and Levon and George did the rest as well or better than anyone I have ever seen.

Gary is right: go find door panels and pockets to replace the ubiquitous rs door panels every moron put on his car, roughly $1,500 for driver quality installed. Headliner with new seals is actually $1,000, dash $1200, carpet $1400, rear quarters and seats $1,000, front seats in leather $3,000 (vinyl is $2400 so why not pony up for the leather) where are we......$9100....hmmmmm, wait, steering wheel recover by Tony $300, shift knob $200, coat hooks and light bezel chrome $100,seat belts and retractors $200.....Oh wow the interior is beautiful but those gauges look terrible now: new set complete from NoHo Speedo $1,000... I make that $9,900. Now you better hope that when all of the carpet and headliner came out there is no rust in there because that could add up to even more but I would say that unless you know the car an interior complete is $10,000.

Paint is $5,000 for a basic nice driver, chrome is $2,000 and rubber $1,500, wheels are $1,000 and tires $450.

So at a $10 purchase, 10k inside and 10k outside you have a $30,000 car that needs a motor. Add 10k. And it is a T?

You can shave $5,000 of the numbers above-just add 12 months to the delivery date while you do it yourself but also add back $5,000 in jewelry for the wife.

It starts to make sense (especially in this economy) to buy a car completely done from someone who knows what he is doing for a fraction of the price it takes to restore one yourself.

[geshaghi]

I appreciate all the comments and feedback. Bottom line is that the restoration process is very expensive, no matter how you do it. The car is going to my mechanic for a compression and leakdown tomorrow. I have a lead on a supposedly original 50,000 mile 72T with sport seats that I am going to look at today - pricey, but still probably less than the cost of restoration of this one.

[blau911]

Originally Posted by mrbeverlyhills

Why would you ask anyone to wear a kick me sign? If you have a old 911 then you have "kick me" branded on your forehead already!

I just did an interior complete and if I ignore the cost of the sport seat cores and just allow for the recovering then the interior complete was $9,000. Tony did the seats and Levon and George did the rest as well or better than anyone I have ever seen.

Gary is right: go find door panels and pockets to replace the ubiquitous rs door panels every moron put on his car, roughly $1,500 for driver quality installed. Headliner with new seals is actually $1,000, dash $1200, carpet $1400, rear quarters and seats $1,000, front seats in leather $3,000 (vinyl is $2400 so why not pony up for the leather) where are we......$9100....hmmmmm, wait, steering wheel recover by Tony $300, shift knob $200, coat hooks and light bezel chrome $100,seat belts and retractors $200.....Oh wow the interior is beautiful but those gauges look terrible now: new set complete from NoHo Speedo $1,000... I make that $9,900. Now you better hope that when all of the carpet and headliner came out there is no rust in there because that could add up to even more but I would say that unless you know the car an interior complete is $10,000.

Paint is $5,000 for a basic nice driver, chrome is $2,000 and rubber $1,500, wheels are $1,000 and tires $450.

So at a $10 purchase, 10k inside and 10k outside you have a $30,000 car that needs a motor. Add 10k. And it is a T?

You can shave $5,000 of the numbers above-just add 12 months to the delivery date while you do it yourself but also add back $5,000 in jewelry for the wife.

It starts to make sense (especially in this economy) to buy a car completely done from someone who knows what he is doing for a fraction of the price it takes to restore one yourself.

Look,
You guys calculate the cost of restoration with new Porsche dealer rip-off prices. If you have the wallet and desire to do it, why not? Door pockets are $700 a piece at the local dealer That would easily run you $3000 alone if that is what you choose to do - and you want now. But if you are patient and a smart buyer, with a little luck you can buy really nice used stuff too though. I bought a complete set of door pockets (all 4) from Jim Logan (RPMclassic) last year for $400. They were not new, but they were almost perfect. Money saved = $2400.
Another example is seats. Good used non sport seats between 1967-73 come up for sale on Pelican and Ebay every few months for $600 and less. Some are almost as good as new. Money saved = $850-1 000. These are just examples of where cutting corners between new and good used can save a ton of money.
The point is if you don't need it now, and it doesn't have to be brand NIB, you can easily get away with making your interior very presentable for south of $10k. The only thing I don't have a tip for is a nice crack free dash for less than a thousand. I am only waiting for someone with a little knowledge of primitive plastic covered formed foam to find a cheap company in China to start making these things and bring down the ridiculous prices (like the guy out of Belgium did with the Cibie rallye lights last year. For what these dashes are made of, and the basic 35 year technology used to make them, I would have expected someone to jump on this opportunity and make some good profit undercutting Porsche prices.
As for the kick me sign on every early 911 owner. I beg to differ. Every time I am in an early 911 car (regardless of whether it is a T E or S, or a targa or coupe) and I come across someone in a newer 911, all I have to do is look over and see the look of envy on the driver's face and the smile from his girlfiend or wife. The early cars are treasured jewels by many. Park it on a busy street and watch the people gather and gawk. I live in Munich and every time I park downtown every German looks at my car like it is a flying saucer from the most famous sports car manufacturer ever to grace the Vaterland. And my car is just lowly viper green 73T targa.
The kick me sign refers only to those people who don't mind being overcharged - like the guy who Needs to have this year's 911 turbo model now - even though Porsche can't give them away in this economy - rather than wait a year when it is last years's model and worth $30000 less.
I am not looking debate with you Mrbeverlyhills. I would simply consider it two different ways to skin a cat. One is much cheaper and more cost efficient with a little bit of patience and flexibility for slightly used versus brand new.

[ossiblue]

Geshaghi,

Your last post just reminded me of something so here's a wild hair--

I remember seeing a beautiful, forest green 72 sunroof for sale a while back. I believe it was in Oregon or Northern Ca. but there were pictures posted with a wooden water tank (?) in the back ground. I think it was on the EarlyS registry and commented on very positively. Very nice car but out of my range.
Here's why I'm posting this. I saw the car again for sale by the same owner while browsing through (I think) Craigslist. This was several months ago and it was just by accident that I saw it. It wasn't on Pelican nor EarlyS. My point is, you may want to post a WTB ad for that specific car, if you're interested, or at least post an inquiry to see if anyone knows about it--both here and on EarlyS. It truly was a nice, clean, well maintained car and I wish I could be more specific.
Anyway, just a thought as I am vicariously shopping for a nice 72 through your quest. Take it or leave it, but good luck on your hunt.

[geshaghi]

Originally Posted by ossiblue

Geshaghi,

Your last post just reminded me of something so here's a wild hair--

I remember seeing a beautiful, forest green 72 sunroof for sale a while back. I believe it was in Oregon or Northern Ca. but there were pictures posted with a wooden water tank (?) in the back ground. I think it was on the EarlyS registry and commented on very positively. Very nice car but out of my range.
Here's why I'm posting this. I saw the car again for sale by the same owner while browsing through (I think) Craigslist. This was several months ago and it was just by accident that I saw it. It wasn't on Pelican nor EarlyS. My point is, you may want to post a WTB ad for that specific car, if you're interested, or at least post an inquiry to see if anyone knows about it--both here and on EarlyS. It truly was a nice, clean, well maintained car and I wish I could be more specific.
Anyway, just a thought as I am vicariously shopping for a nice 72 through your quest. Take it or leave it, but good luck on your hunt.

Thanks L.J. I know the car you speak of. I spoke to the seller several months ago, but passed on the car as the seller seemed fixed in his price (high) and the car was a T. Ironically, I saw the car here in SoCal last month, as Steve (aka our very own gsjohnson) bought the car. It is indeed a very beautiful car and the color is stunning. In talking to him and looking at the car in person, I think he got a very nice buy.

[mrbeverlyhills]

I think you just proved my point. You shaved $5k off the prices I quoted which were a LONG way from walking in backwards to the dealer with a jar of vaseline in your hand.
There is a nice set of pockets ans armrests just sold on ebay for $512 (now ship them, recover them and install them) so you can mate those onto the rs panels you have.
The only thing is, I don't want regular seats, I drive enthuiastically and on track days the regular seats are no bueno. You can get something good for less that sport seats but you still haven't saved that much. I don't need NIB but I don't want crappy old seats in my new interior.

As to the rest of it with smiles from other guys gals about your longhood I am not sure we are on the same planet; I think all of us that have these cars and have done for 30 years or so get that, what's the point? I meant if you have one of these then the kick me brand is becuase we pay so much to keep them on the road as is.

I do understand there is a line many of us have crossed, not me but some folks have; $1400 tool kits, $1000 fog lights, $3000 7r rims etc etc.

I love Munich, hope you can get the 911 back out on the road soon; funny name Blau 911 for a guy with a Gruen 911!

[blau911]

Originally Posted by mrbeverlyhills

I love Munich, hope you can get the 911 back out on the road soon; funny name Blau 911 for a guy with a Gruen 911!

That was my 67 911 colors back in 1999 before I repainted it irish green. My username on the pelican Board is gruen911
Here is a before pic:



and after



I bought it for $8000, and restored it for another $15k including full motor rebuild with original 2.0S parts. I did half the work myself and learned a lot about early 911's along the way. Nothing like baptism thru fire...