Looking for a P-car, but many seem to be highly overpriced

johnnyfranc2 · 04-23-2009, 04:35 AM

I am looking for a 911, preferably a type 993. I am in the Chicago area, and everything I have seen so far is going for considerably over book value. For example, I am looking at a 993 that is selling for $22,000 from a private gentleman, which is even over retail. It leaks a little oil, needs a repaint, so according to kelly blue book, it is between fair and good condition. Here is what the book value is:

http://www.kbb.com/KBB/UsedCars/PricingReport.aspx?WebCategoryId=35&YearId=1996&Mi leage=90000&VehicleClass=UsedCar&ManufacturerId=41 &ModelId=254&PriceType=Private+Party&VehicleId=963 8&SelectionHistory=9638|30460|60601|0|0|&Condition =Good&QuizConditions=

I know that the value of these cars has dropped quite a bit, and maybe that is why people don't want to sell at book value. It seems to be fairly common, as many of the cars I look at are priced over book value.

p9142 · 04-23-2009, 04:40 AM

If a car is overpriced, it probably means that the seller doesn't actually own the car, and he or she has a lien on the car. I am in a similar part of the country, and I have noticed the same thing. However, dealers seem to be selling cars at or below book value, so you can often get a car for much cheaper from a dealer than from a private seller.

If you take a look at ebay, you will notice that almost none of the 911s are meeting reserve because private sellers have an unrealistic expectation of what the cars will bring in this market.

There are cars to be found though. I just picked up a 1997 993 with 60,000 miles for $18,500 which is in excellent condition. I would never pay over book value, especially in this market which should heavily favor anyone with cash who is ready to buy.

Good luck!

Rot 911 · 04-23-2009, 05:21 AM

Kelly Blue books price setter must be on drugs when it comes to pricing 911's. The 993 is the last of the air cooled 911's and even a beater 993 will sell in the low $20's. A nice one will sell in the $30's.

Patrick you got the deal of the decade!

techweenie · techweenie's Garage

There's an interesting phenomenon that happens when Kelley Blue Book or the NADA Guide is out of sync with the market: the number of cars being advertised for sale drops.

Right now, 6-speed 993 coupes are uncommon on eBay, Craigslist, Auto Trader, etc. Because owners won't take low prices unless they have to.

The guides use a combination of sale reports and mathematical calculations to derive their values. In the real world, good Varioram coupes appear to still bring $30K+

I was able to buy -- for a European shopper -- a low mile C2S for $35K last week. But that was a fluke.

domimax · 04-23-2009, 07:03 AM

Techweenie,

I have always found that KBB and the NADA to be "out of sync."

If you are buying the KBB looks sweet and the NADA is a turn off. Vice-versa from the sellers eyes.

That said the market appears rather locked up. Many cars for sale, few selling.

techweenie · techweenie's Garage

Let me know where the 'many cars for sale' are. Most of what I'm seeing are 993 cabs and tips. And tip cabs.

I have a buyer in Europe looking for a conservatively colored 6-speed varioram coupe.

domimax · 04-23-2009, 07:43 AM

I was refering to 1978-1989 911's. There are 286 for sale on Autotrader alone. This does not include 1978-1980 cars.

p9142 · 04-23-2009, 09:48 AM

I do think that I got a good deal, but I would disagree with the statement that the prices in the books are out of line. Those prices come from what actual cars are selling for.

One of the best ways to see what a car is actually worth is to look at ebay. Although I would never buy a car online, it shows you what people are willing to pay for these cars. The market is flooded with people trying to unload these cars.

domimax · 04-23-2009, 10:09 AM

p9142,

You have to be careful about the price of cars "sold" on ebay. Many of these "sold" cars never
did really sell. Rather, they sold to an "electronic shill" bidder.

I have seen so very many "sold" cars reappear time after, after time by the same seller. Sometimes under the same Ebay ID and sometimes by another ID. Some peeps have multiple Ebay accounts. Even their dogs have accounts!

Bottom line, bidder fraud on ebay is common. I know, as i have tracked it close. Reporting it does little to know good.

trader220 · 04-23-2009, 10:41 AM

KBB and Edmunds and the likes dont actually buy or sell cars. They can be a useful tool in some cases but they're not the rule on what fair value is for any car. Also, the market moves a lot faster than the prices on KBB and others. The day that KBB has buyers at Manheim bidding on cars and taking them home will be the day they have more of a real handle on the market at any given time.

ArcticOne · 04-23-2009, 10:45 AM

Would also question the statement that there are lots of cars on the market these days. I have been searching for the past 8 months and one of my standard searches on eBay is consistently returning approximately 800 listings. In late 2008 that number was in the 900 - 1000 range so am not seeing a significant increase in the number of cars being offered for sale.

Similar on the AutoTrader.com and .ca sites as the numbers being offered are fairly consistent over time.

Its supposedly a Buyer's market out there but am not seeing it myself.

jb

domimax · 04-23-2009, 10:49 AM

Manheim prices on their dealer site is very much in tune to the Black Book price. This is the Manheim Market Value (MMV) and is not really public information. It is actual SELLING values at DEALER auctions througout the USA.

The MMV is only useful to later model cars 2002 and up. Moslty massed produced cars. It is of little value for cars like air-cooled Porsches or any older collector car.

whiterabbit · 04-23-2009, 12:43 PM

If you are seriously looking for a decent 993 then you want a good one. Its unlikely someone with a good one will sell for a low distress price. Book is way too low on these cars and does not reflect the real market, nor does Ebay.

I have not seen a decent 993 coupe sell for 25k or even close.

carnutzzz · 04-26-2009, 09:46 AM

That's because Black Book gets their values from Manheim.

Quote:

Originally Posted by domimax

Manheim prices on their dealer site is very much in tune to the Black Book price. This is the Manheim Market Value (MMV) and is not really public information. It is actual SELLING values at DEALER auctions througout the USA.

The MMV is only useful to later model cars 2002 and up. Moslty massed produced cars. It is of little value for cars like air-cooled Porsches or any older collector car.