Vintage Racer - restore or not?

[dienstuhr]

Seeing this post gave me a feeling, and it wasn't necessarily a 100% good feeling:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-cars-sale/524657-1967-911-vintage-race-car.html

I don't own an old race car and I'm not in the market for one. But I am a big fan of the "original unrestored" car, especially race cars. To me the patina of races long past has a deep appeal that cannot be replicated by the shiny and the new.

The car in the link above was purchased in 1967 and campaigned by the original owner until 1973 when it was parked. It was rediscovered by collectors in 2003:

"Upon arrival to Klub Sport’s West Palm Beach shop, the Niederer car was carefully evaluated and found to have virtually no rust and no accidents. The car had ninety plus percent original paint and little or no body work to be done. It appeared to have had track side flares put on the rear fenders to accommodate a larger wheel and tire and one of the rocker panels had a bit of curbing. Other than those few areas the car was completely original. The odometer showed 34,000 miles."

Sounds great, right? Repair the curbed rockers and repair the small bits of rust, polish up the original paint and you have an original, remarkable "survivor" car with patina from the road race wars of 40 years ago. But that's not what they did:

"After carefully disassembling the car and putting the tub on a rotisserie, all the undercoating and sound deadening was hand scraped off. The car was then taken to a media blasting shop where the tub and all of the bolt on body panels were stripped to bare metal. The tub was then transported to Michaelian Restoration in Stuart Florida for its re-paint in Glasurit Sand Beige."

You can read the rest of the story yourself but the car is 100% refinished. It looks fantastic and probably drives better than it did in the '60s. The full resto also justifies the price tag of $165K. But I can't help thinking that something has been lost along the way.

So, any thoughts on survivors vs. restorations? Should a very nice original car have the originality restored out of it? Or is the point that a car that is 40-years-old and not track-worthy is now back on the racetrack?

Cheers

d.

[LWJ]

I saw that as well. My druthers are towards the survivor but then would they be able to charge $165K for a survivor?

I think it is a business model. People keep on supporting this model so some folks must be into it. Not really my cup of tea. I would prefer a survivor go out and rip it up.

[racer]

The "restore" vs "preserve" vs "rebuild" issues are HUGE in the big money collector car world.

Is it better to have a completely original, but well worn looking 1913 buick? Or do a full restoration/rebuild into a piece of art. My dad is a volunteer with a respected collector in Florida. There, he has some cars that are exactly the same the last day they raced.. and others cleaned up and maintained, so thay they can STILL be used. And others that have had millions spent on restoring them.

In fact, at the same collection, I heard a speech about this very subject.. provenance and origiinality vs "recreation" of an object. Interesting debate and both sides have merit.

As to Porsches, I like my old ones "original".. and you can only be original once. On the other hand though.. seeing a fully restored and resplendent example of a car otherwise only seen in B&W images can be very moving. Picture a pebble beach winning Talbot and just how amazing it can look.

[70SATMan]

IMO they ruined that car. I've pictures archived of what it looked like when Ahearn bought it. He talked about keeping it as a time capsule......then it was sold.

The only reason I see that they went through the whole resto process was an anticipated ROI for a "hot market".

Oh, and the interior changes DO NOT REFLECT how it was when Hans raced or when Ahearn brought it back into the light of day. That line should be taken with a huge salt lick.

Doing justice to the car should have meant a sympathetic restoration, keeping original paint, cleaning up the interior, leaving the undercoating, etc.

Now, it's just an over restored privateer, no different than a current KlubSport creation that someone happens to be racing.

Really made me sad seeing their "final product"

[johnbri]

70SAT Man,
I have to respectfully disagree with you on this car. I've seen the car before and after, and It is in absolutely fantastic condition, and in a condition that most high-end racers or collectors would cherish.

Is is the same as when Niederer raced it? Of course not. Nor would most of us want a car that is beat up, dented, chipped, a hodge-podge of parts put on and patched up over maybe a decade or more of hard racing.

I have owned and currently own many historic race cars, both for the track and show. I will tell you that as a serious collector I want my cars to look fantastic and perform flawlessly. I want to be able to race the car at a serious event, and be proud to display it in the paddock and on a non-race weekend.

The Niederer car as presented by Klubsport, is heads and shoulders above one of their "Klubsport Creations" that someone is racing. It is "As Period" as one would want to enter in the Monterey Historics or other high end track event. At the same time it is very presentable for an Amelia Island type show. I guess the original vs restored debate depends highly upon what your goal is with the car. "Original" race cars are really only good for sitting in a warehouse. You wouldn't and probably shouldn't enter it in a high end historic race...its simply not safe. You probably wouldn't enter or display it in a high end show either, due to it's hodge-podge of oddities placed on over it's career on the track. Most of the "original" race cars that you'll ever see today are the truly out of this world cars like a LeMans winning GT40 or a 60's Ferrari GTO. These cars should be kept as the day they earned their rightful place in history. However, in my humble opinion, a moderately known 60's or 70's racer is best enjoyed restored, presented and raced if you're lucky enough to do it. And of most shops that I'm acquainted with, Klubsport, does the best job out there with this type of early Porsche.

[70SATMan]

Originally Posted by johnbri

70SAT Man,
I have to respectfully disagree with you on this car. I've seen the car before and after, and It is in absolutely fantastic condition, and in a condition that most high-end racers or collectors would cherish. .

I never questioned it's current condition. Nor have I demeaned what KlubSport does or the level of their work, nor their price. Sounds like you are a bit to close to the situation. Maybe you own it, I have no idea. Maybe you're just a friend of Don's? Friend of Klubsport? Again, I have no idea.

The discussion was originality vs restoration. I only gave my opinion on what I felt the car deserved. Levels of collection mean absolutely nothing to me.

Originally Posted by johnbri

So, any thoughts on survivors vs. restorations? Should a very nice original car have the originality restored out of it? Or is the point that a car that is 40-years-old and not track-worthy is now back on the racetrack?

Consider the 917 that was put away wet after it's last formal "back in the day" race. It is still shown and raced. That car is still HOW it was in the day, sloppy original glass and paint, paint chips, duct tape, bailing wire fixes, etc. So obviously it's not an impossible task. You agree? I mean were talking about a 917 versus a 2L 911. Piece of cake. By the way I'd take that 917 over the myriad of the other over restored examples shown today in a heartbeat. Those create something that never existed and is only done to win someone a show trophy IMHO.

The over restoration was not done to make it safe for racing. "virtually no rust, 90% original paint......"

Fact is, the decisions made on the car had to do with ROI when it came time to be re-sold to a "collector". It certainly wasn't about track readiness. It was to jump on what became a hot market. Early 911s with race history. What history, what mods??? That was secondary. The changes that were made to this car prove that point. Marketability baby! History was erased and now someone is claiming it wasn't if I read the ad correctly and you obviously know this from seeing it's features when Don bought it.

Justice could have been done to the car without that. Frankly, I believe "moderately known" privateers should have more consideration given their cars than factory werks cars. The level of commitment by those guys was more pure to form in my mind.

I guess I just need to look at it from an investment point of view??? Always very, very important for the serious collector (and purveyors of collectable material), eh?

Anyway, my take and all that... Had it been my decision it would have faired differently and still would have been safe to race.

So, I guess my final thought is to give originality the nod if it's feasible; which in this case was so easliy apparant.

[johnbri]

Satman,

We're obviously in different places on this. Doesn't mean either is right or wrong. I fully agree with your 917 analogy, these cars are rare, and highly sought after whatever their condition. I can not say the same thing about an early 911 unless there's something spectacularly special about it.
I have no connection to this car whatsoever, other than seeing it before and after Klubsport did it's restoration. Phil at Klubsport has done fantastic work for a certain type of collector, and has brought back many early porsches which deserved to be showcased.
John

[dave m]

Originally Posted by johnbri

And of most shops that I'm acquainted with, Klubsport, does the best job out there with this type of early Porsche.

My vote would be 901 Shop. But interesting thread. You've both made good points.

[johnbri]

Dave M,

901 Shop is also very good. Jack has done a couple of engines for me.

[ErVikingo]

Hi Brice!

Phil and Bruce have performed many excellent restorations. Great attention to detail and good friends too!

Have you seen the full restorations by 901 Shop? Jack, Brady and the team have restored various street and racecars (RSR's, 911S, etc) to 100 point standards. Not to mention their scratch built racecars (like my cars!) and their special project hot rods (and currently a couple of 3.6 liter VW bus & truck with full 911 suspension and MoTeC!).

I have driven the singlecab and WOW I need one now..........

See you at the track soon! Juan

[johnbri]

Hi Juan,

Absolutely! They do fantastic work. And they throw a great Louisiana seafood bake!

Congrats on winning the Klubsport challenge this year. Anyone who is a thorn in the side of Keith Carroll is a hero to me.

Are you upgrading cars right now? I've seen your 2 litre cars F/S. Any interest in a fantastic 996 GT3RS Daytona winner?

John

[johnbri]

Juan,

PS Jack built the 3.8 litre endurance spec motor in the 2003 GT3 RS. Great motor!

[ErVikingo]

John,

You re being the devil over my left shoulder I can't right now as we are trying to start construction on a new garage with a house attached to it.

Send me the details as I know someone who might be interested. (juan at alteregoracing.com)

Cheers! Juan