How many Black '72 T's ?

Guest User · 02:55 PM

Hi folks, I've been holding onto my pristine black '72 T (no sunroof, S brakes/trim) project car for 20 years now and am relocating to Europe sometime next year and am debating on wether or not to just ship it over or off it before I depart.
I've been told by several long hood enthusiasts that there weren't many black cars made but that's just too ambiguous - I do have the COA indicating Black/Black leatherette so that end's covered. Is there a resource/site available in determining how many were indeed produced, enabling me to verify and end the speculation on just how rare the car really is or isn't? The COA indicates the following:

Exterior Paint Color/Code
Black/10

Interior Material/Color
Black Leatherette/11

Optional equipment:

US Equipment
Light Metal Wheels
Information Not Available/402 (whatever that means)
Stabilizers, 15* - F/R
Trim Strips on Rims
Comfort Equipment for 911S
and 911T
Tinted Glass All Around
Dunlop Tires

Kindest Regards

911K · 911K's Garage

I've never seen a definitive count on the different colors available in 1972, but I would guess that around 5%-8% of the cars were painted black from the factory. Black just wasn't a very popular color back then.

If your car is in excellent condition, it would be worth taking it to Europe and either selling it (the value is much higher there) or just driving it on the great roads all over the continent!

coldstart · 11-19-2010, 05:34 AM

I can't answer your question as to how many black 911s were made in 1972, but I have the corresponding schwarz 72 targa, so you aren't alone. I have attached the 1972 colour chart for your reference.

I have the rest of the pages of the color brochure if you are interested.

blau911 · 11-19-2010, 09:32 PM

That 10% figure quoted above is wrong. The number of 72/73 cars painted was more like 2%. Black was a special order color and was not very popular during this time when the explosion of 60's colors was in full bloom. Look at all of the brochures and photo ads of the time and you will not see any black cars. The large factory 22 page brochure distributed by the factory in 1972 used a chartreuse 911T targa for its photo lay out car.

Guest User · 11-19-2010, 09:47 PM

Mike, and Coldstart. Thanks for your replies. I was actually leaning towards shipping it over and putting it together over there as I've had it for such a long time I'm just used to it being a part of my life even though it's sat in its corner of the garage up here in the high desert for all this time.

Coldstart, beautiful Targa there and a major thanks for posting the brochure. I had forgotten black was an optional color which now re-ignites my curiosity on its rarity.

I don't know. I'm somewhat torn on what to do. The car is an exceptional roller. Never any shunts, rust or corrosion and the battery boxes, undercar, - heck - the entire car looks amazingly undisturbed and absolutely cherry. No seats, door panels or rear window and the 2.7 motor fitted was sold off years ago. But all of the wiring was left untouched and the car was a windows out, fenders off $9k sikkens two stage repaint back in 1990.

I think I'll have one of those mobile detailer outfits come up and detail it then put a feeler out on it in here with details and pictures and see how much interest is generated.

Thanks Gents.

Guest User · 11-19-2010, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blau911

That 10% figure quoted above is wrong. The number of 72/73 cars painted was more like 2%. Black was a special order color and was not very popular during this time when the explosion of 60's colors was in full bloom. Look at all of the brochures and photo ads of the time and you will not see any black cars. The large factory 22 page brochure distributed by the factory in 1972 used a chartreuse 911T targa for its photo lay out car.

Coincides with the opinions of many over the last couple decades. Thank you!

coldstart · 11-20-2010, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blau911
That 10% figure quoted above is wrong. The number of 72/73 cars painted was more like 2%. Black was a special order color and was not very popular during this time when the explosion of 60's colors was in full bloom. Look at all of the brochures and photo ads of the time and you will not see any black cars. The large factory 22 page brochure distributed by the factory in 1972 used a chartreuse 911T targa for its photo lay out car.

While I have no figures, I would expect the percentage to be less than 5% (possibly 2%). My original black 911 was a highly optioned targa (sports seats, s-trim, AC, etc.) and the typical owner would not have paid extra for a non-popular color at the time. Heck, I would not have.....

techweenie · techweenie's Garage

I've sure seen a lot of black '72s, considering how rare they are claimed to be.

Guest User · 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by techweenie

I've sure seen a lot of black '72s, considering how rare they are claimed to be.

techweenie, no doubt, I have too, but -- are they real black cars? Back in the 80's I was a principal partner at Superformance in Santa Monica just around the corner from Pete Zimmerman (we actually leased our place from Pete) when he was still running his shop and being that we had a substantial customer base with Bimmer, Benz and Porsche owners afforded me many opportunities to search out a suitable car for myself.

I had Pete looking and even spoke to Alwin and Robert Truax at Andial inquiring on any black long hoods which might be available from one of their customers. I vividly recall Alwin telling me there weren't many at all, though he did have a couple of customers with them. As I recall there was an 'E' and an 'S' both were sunroof cars - one had AC and the owners would part with them but they wanted way too much for them, plus I wanted a non-sunroof car so I passed until I found mine which came by way of one of our own customers.

Also, Avio Piombetti at Avio Coachcraft (then Bertone Coachworks in S.M.) a well known high end panel beater/paint shop who resprayed the car mentioned he hadn't seen many early, original black cars so how many real one's there are is purely speculative at this point.

Also, an interesting side note pertaining to my car. It was fitted with an 46 weber'd 2.7 that was just ferocious at the time I purchased it. The car was purchased by our customer from the son of it's original owner who claimed the car was a gift to his dad from Steve McQueen who bestowed it upon him for the work he had done while at Solar productions (a McQueen venture) Our customer, who was a celebrity agent at Creative Artist then commissioned Harold Braughton, the guy who was Johhny von Neumann's main wrench at Competition Motors and subsequently Ritchie Ginthers mechanic to.. in his words "Build it the way Ginther would have wanted it".

I knew Harold (he wasn't an easy guy to talk to) somewhat, and after discovering he was the one who had built the motor and set up the car, I had driven out to his shop in Canoga Park - Performance Plus I believe it was. Anyway, after a few formalities we started talking about the car as he immediately recognized it as being one of his customers to which he added, "one of the few black early cars I tuned. Not many were made".

I inquired if he remembered what he'd done to the car and he responded by going into a filing cabinet and making me a copy of the invoice which I have. He also mentioned McQueen as supposedly being somehow involved in the original owner's car but couldn't elaborate, so....

I thank everyone for their input, it's truly appreciated.

onlycafe · 11-20-2010, 11:01 AM

you ought to bring an engine along with you, i hear that they are plenty expensive on the other side.

Guest User · 11-20-2010, 04:02 PM

Here's a link to some pics of the car for those interested. Bare in mind the car has been sitting in one spot since 1990. You can click on the link to my sub album and you'll see 5 pics of the car as it sat for 20 years. I pushed it out into the driveway and only hosed it down for the pics. The car was supposed to go back to Avio Coach Craft for a final polish after the paint had fully cured. Surely a stunning example when it finally gets done.

Every piece of rubber, aluminum trim, thresholds, wiper arms, antenna, air inlet, even the window seals between the chrome moldings which hold the rear windows (an arduous task) were replaced with OEM parts procured from Steve Taub and Vasek Polak P/A back in the day. You'll also note the S front spoiler which I decided to add and is also the OE steel piece purchased new from Polak.

Amazingly, because of the dry climate up here in the mojave and the fact the car never saw any sun payed major dividends. All of the rubber on the car is still fully pliable with no indication of dry cracking.

Pictures by krautman1 - Photobucket

Guest User · 11-20-2010, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onlycafe

you ought to bring an engine along with you, i hear that they are plenty expensive on the other side.

True, and I'm going to be doing just that.- Looking for a complete 2.4 MFI T motor to plug in.

davidbir · 11-21-2010, 09:52 AM

This one has run on ebay at least twice now. Appears to have RS rear flares although they don't mention it. That must mean non original paint? Looks very nice but is Noo Joisy a good place to buy a Porsche?

Porsche : 911 - eBay (item 260687596498 end time Nov-25-10 07:08:06 PST)

Guest User · 11:36 AM

I've seen that car as well although your link appears to be kaput. Here's one that works:

Porsche : 911 - eBay (item 260687596498 end time Nov-25-10 07:08:06 PST)

IMHO, there's so much wrong there that one would be hard pressed to stop once started.

Immediately, one recognizes the front and rear bumpers as being fiber and the rear wheel flares are indeed incorrect as well. The correct RS fender flares have rounded lips or faces not the flats which are the later SC/Carrera iterations, also the correct and corresponding rear bumper ends flare out to conform to the flares on the original or properly done tribute or replica RS.

All in all a very poorly executed example of an RS to what appears to be a genuine black car fitted with A/C... add to the list of warts. the carpet, windshield molding, paint checking, etc, etc, ad infinium - there's no wonder the car doesn't have any takers.

Not worth a third of the asking price IMO. Certainly not to me.

techweenie · techweenie's Garage

I disagree on the linked eBay car. Looks pretty good to me.

Guest User · 11-21-2010, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by techweenie

I disagree on the linked eBay car. Looks pretty good to me.

Sensible, logical disagreement can be healthy and enlightening.

That being said. Our individual judgement of the car lines up as well as the front bumper to hood rubber molding and left turn signal assembly do.

I will concede however that upon another painful glance at the photos I noticed the incorrect for the vintage rear bumpers do indeed flare to meet up with their equally vintage incorrect counterparts.

Regards

davidbir · 11-21-2010, 11:41 AM

Thanks for the working link. I spent some time going through the photos and in the pages of maintenance records is a comment from a shop that this car needs a new front pan. The engine was overhauled but the car seems to have sat for most of the past 20 years. Some of the photos appear to show orange peel in the paint.