Value of modified 74 Carrera

[whiterabbit]

Price seemed fair to me given the color, condition and history.

[kilodawg]

There are people who will pay for anything and there are lots of factors that drive price. Emotion being one of the biggest.

As a long time Porsche enthusiast who has owned two '74 911's I just like to understand what exactly makes these cars so special. Special enough to separate their value by so much from a standard '74 911S up to the point that they are in direct competition with some of their arguably just as special higher performance cousins.

Now if it's emotion that's fine but if their is something more to it I'd sure like to know.....Again nothing against the car at all.....

Back in '74 they were not viewed to be that far above their other US stable mates. In fact I distinctly recall that they were rightly or wrongly seen as a Carrera in not much more than name only as compared to the euro version. My base 911 cost $12,280 in July of '74 and I recall that the Carrera was roughly in the mid 15k range. So if it's not emotion driving the huge price disparity today what technical revelation were we unaware of back in '74 that made this model such a great deal back then.....

[racer]

Kilodawg, I've wondered this for years as well since my folks had a '74S bought new. Identical performance. What was it missing? Sunroof, rear flares, power windows. And the carrera decals and ducktail.

However, with time, its the "scarcity" that drives the market. To me, a '74 Carrera is not worth a premium. But, at the same time, seeing a fully original/restored '74 Carrera just seems more impressive than a regular '74S.

It IS emotion and sense of scarcity that breeds a price premium. Also its trading on the "cache" of the Carrera name. But rationally knowing there was no performance advantage to the Carrera has always annoyed me.

[ecarine]

The 175 hp is in my owners manual. I did a quick search on Pelican and DD74 also mentions this HP for the Carrera and S model as that. It is often confused with the 73 911S model's hp of "I think" 165. From what I understand, the 911S of 74 didn't have the better geared ring and pinion. Plus, the Carrera was usually option with the better shocks and larger tires. There are differences other than cosmetics. The Carreras price tag could near the $16,000 mark which was a huge step up back then from the 911s. Some of the Carreras sat around on dealership showrooms for upto a year before they were sold.

Take Care,

Eric

[renntrade]

Originally Posted by ecarine

The 175 hp is in my owners manual. I did a quick search on Pelican and DD74 also mentions this HP for the Carrera and S model as that. It is often confused with the 73 911S model's hp of "I think" 165. From what I understand, the 911S of 74 didn't have the better geared ring and pinion. Plus, the Carrera was usually option with the better shocks and larger tires. There are differences other than cosmetics. The Carreras price tag could near the $16,000 mark which was a huge step up back then from the 911s. Some of the Carreras sat around on dealership showrooms for upto a year before they were sold.

Take Care,

Eric

This is a particularly interesting insight and I appreciate it. I just love these cars, and always considered them extremely 'seat of the pants' fast!!!!

[kilodawg]

Thanks ecarine for the update.

It was timely to find the Aubergine '74 Carrera pop up on the classifieds yesterday. If I interpret his listing correctly, this is a numbers matching car. Also a desirable and rare color. While it currently has an RS interior with later seats the original interior is included in the sale. While mileage isn't listed, the car looks and is advertised to be in exceptional condition.

His asking price is $38.5K

So while still strong money I think this example based on originality is much closer to the mark price-wise. Curious as to the groups thoughts and how you all feel this cars' value compares to the the one that started this thread....

[racer]

Originally Posted by ecarine

The 175 hp is in my owners manual. I did a quick search on Pelican and DD74 also mentions this HP for the Carrera and S model as that. It is often confused with the 73 911S model's hp of "I think" 165. From what I understand, the 911S of 74 didn't have the better geared ring and pinion. Plus, the Carrera was usually option with the better shocks and larger tires. There are differences other than cosmetics. The Carreras price tag could near the $16,000 mark which was a huge step up back then from the 911s. Some of the Carreras sat around on dealership showrooms for upto a year before they were sold.

Take Care,

Eric

Sorta.. iirc, the 175 was the "DIN" rated. US spec, (SAE) was 167hp. Either one is "right" but knowing which rating scale is important. Just like the 300+hp V-8s in same period detroit iron.. Yeah, 300 "gross", but "net" was closer to 230.

The '74S and Carrera shared the same motor.. With a "green" engine cover. The "green" was also used on the '73 "E" spec motors (2.4l, rated at 165hp as well. The '73S was rated at 190hp in the US) Hence the thought that the US "S" was more like the previous "E" than a true "S"

Of NOTE, in '74 there was still a "base" car which was even less contented, and ran a 143hp version of the same 2.7l CIS motor. This car was similar to the '73 "T" in its specs. Smaller brakes, Steel wheels standard etc.

'74S DID have the same "better geared" final ring and pinion. '75 -77 had the less sporting final ratios to impove MPG in a OPEC inspired high fuel cost world.

Carrera were not "optioned" with larger tires. They came standard with larger tires/rims on the rear only. 7x15s with 215-60-15. Fronts were still 6x15 with 185-70-15s.. the same tire the "S" used on all 4 corners.

While Carrera price tag could reach $16K, the 911S was still expensive in its day. IIRC, my folks paid around $12K in LATE '74 as the '75s were coming out, for thier "stripper" '74S (no sunroof, no power windows, no ac etc)

I've always likenend "mid years" to "996's" so who knows, in another 20 years, we'll debating why a '99 3.4 is selling for $50K

[naparsei]

Originally Posted by ecarine

According to some that have tracked these Carrera's the CIS is an advantage to the carb setup of the RS because of its ability to deliver power more efficiently coming out of the turns. Being that I am not an expert at the differences in CIS vs. the carb setup I think it is important to note that hp is not the only determinate of what makes a car a fast car on the track/road.

The RS and the 74-76 Carreras sold into non-US markets had MFI, not carbs. The throttle response is a little different than for CIS or carbs. I have never driven a '74 US Carrera, or a stock '74 US market S or "normal", so it's hard for me to assess what you are getting at, except of course the driver can be a huge delta to performance, especially with the 911.

[spooldup]

I have a euro 2.7 carrera which is the same motor as the 73 rs. I have an m&k IROC exhaust on it otherwise stock. A friend had a US 74 carrera , I can tell you my euro carrera would crush the US car.

[ecarine]

Thanks guys for your input. 74 Carreras had the option of larger tires 7's in the front 8's in the rear. Mine was delivered with 6 and 7's but have quite a few friends that have a build sheet with the larger tires.
Clearly the RS is quicker, my point is that the 74 Carrera is much faster than people think when it is thought of being slow. IF you haven't driven one, it is hard to comment on how much fun it is to drive. The weight savings (2,300 lbs.) makes a huge difference and should be more the focus than its hp. Many have written that it was years until Porsche built a car that was as fast as the 74 Carrera. With RS's selling for significant money now, certainly explains why some 74's have past hands for 60k plus. One US Carrera was sold at a European auction for 70,000 euros (posted on this board.) The 74 Euro Carrera in my book is a better car than the 73 RS because of the enhancements in the suspension with virtually the same weight as the 73 RS. Both years look just as good to me when it comes to styles, but I know that a lot of people favor the pre impact look.
I am excited to here more thoughts and would love to hear from more people that have driven both an RS and a 74 carrera.
As a side note, I have a sport exahust (rally) and a larger intake. It seams to make the car a lot quicker than stock and sounds like it should!

Eric

[alwaysflat6s]

I am crazy enough to have owned, driven, modded a variety of these cars. I hadn't intended to go on forever but I.... have. For what I am getting paid for sharing some of my experiences and advice.. you will have to sort through the mush for the good parts. I am not gonna edit this. ENJOY.. I hope.

First, the fabled 73 RS is all about BALANCE and racing heritage. Great cars, but not so fantastic as their reputation. I have had a couple and a stock one is just... sweet. To be the terror they are supposed to be, you need to stiffen them up, have a LSD, AND .. most important.. a 2.8 conversion. THEN they are wild and thrilling. Sure, they are a lot stronger than a stock 2.4S and that is what was represented in the day [Yes, I owned a 2.4S also].

This moves us to 1974. You had what is now many times referred to as the "Euro Carrera". This is the European 1974 Carrera. Period. Anyone that refers to to a "74 RS" can only be correctly referring to the limited 50 car run of 3.0 RS cars. There has been a lot of confusion caused by this and it is mostly owners of Euro Carreras hyping their cars when selling them here. They are NOT RS cars. They are European Carreras.

The 1974 European Carrera was a very sweet car. The driving experience is very close to a 73 RS. Close, but not quite. It is more refined but the slightly heavier chassis also slighly dulls some of the sweet all around balance that a 73 RS has. NICE car.

The 1974 911 was the base car with the lowest performance. They usually were sold as strippers. Think of these as a 911T and you are spot on.

The 1974 911S had the same basic drive train as the 1974 US Carrera. The narrow wheels/tires and body, along with the normal suspension definitely restrict its ability to stay with a 1974 US Carrera in anything but a straight line. The 911S tended to be less well equipped.

The 1974 US Carrera came standard with a lot of luxury touches, like leather seating, plusher carpeting, tinted windows, etc. Important here are the performance upgrade. It came with Bilsteins, 6+7x15s with wider rear tires, and the same flares as the 73 RS to accommodate the wider rear rubber. And.. yes, other stuff. NONE of the 74 MY US Carreras came from the factory with 7 + 8 15s. In 1974 a 7x15 was considered...wide. It wasn't until the 1975 MY Carrera came out with 7+8X15s standard that people regularly upgraded 7+8s on the 1974 and earlier cars. They are so common now that a great many people don't realize it wasn't an option then. The 1974 Carrera had an optional rear ducktail, yes, almost identical to the final version of the 73 RS ducktail. I believe that the ducktail was standard on the 1974 US Carrera. It was only optional on the ROW cars.

While we are at it, the 1975 MY cars were quite similar. The main differences were that the 74 MY Carrera got the early 'whale tail" rear lid, 7+8x5s, and all 1975 MY 911s got the higher R&P transaxle. The higher gearing made a significant different in everyday driving. One other thing that was specific to the California spec cars.. It may also have been on other US 911s. The horrible, most inept example ever of German engineering- Thermal Reactors. These not only reduced the performance of the engines to the point of being laughable, it guaranteed that the engines would be ruined within 30K or so! Not bad- AWFUL. Thank God, many owners quickly swapped the exhausts out for the 1974-earlier exhausts and gained HP along with reliability. The Factory people considered it OUR problem, not theirs. Some other automobiles already had cats, but it took Porsche another 3 years to get around to using them and saving the engines.

There is the background.. Now the driving....

Please, if you read period road tests.. try to remember that it is all relative to the times. If you want a good idea of how these various early 911s performed when an enthusiast was at the wheel on an open road, you need to read some of the old Brit car magazines. I like R&T, C&D, etc but the only quality US period magazine was SCG. A great collection is contained in the old Brooklands Books compilation of Porsche road tests. It was thanks to them that I expected what I experienced when I first drove what was to become my 73 RS with 80% LSD back in the mid 80s. It had "unique" characteristics when traveling at highway speeds and you went either on or off throttle! If you want to know more.. read the tests! :->

A 1973 911S lacks low end torque and only has a peppy [not FAST] upper-high end. If you think one of these is..fast.. you haven't driven a fast car yet. Compared to a 2.2S they pull a lot stronger. That was why period road tests glowed about all that torque and power. Don't forget that the 1972 models came with a lot less compression to accommodate the newer crappy gas and more stringent emissions standards. Carb/MFI 911S cars would.. barely... pass emission test when they were brand new. Really! You could always spot a non-enthusiast 911S or one that had just been tuned for it's smog test.. it had been leaned out to the point where it cracked/banged and make lots of unhappy noises as it drove along. A quick tweak and they ran fine ..but dirty.

The 73 RS engine was basically a 2.4S with larger piston/cylinders. Not much more. It also had a slightly taller 5th gear than the 2.4. You immediately noticed the extra off line torque and mid range. I am in no way putting down the 2.7 RS engine. It happened to be one of those particularly sweet engine combinations that was a very satisfying all around performer. In the day, PCA autoxcross types swapped in 2.2S pistons into their 2.4 S cars as PCA rules allowed this in the stock class. The extra compression made the 2.4S as strong as a 2.7 RS! Maybe a touch stronger. The extra compression made what I think is a nicer performance engine..but whatever.

Now back to the 1974 cars.

The standard 1974 911. Whatever. It was modest and that is that.

The 911S was great in a straight line but was getting heavy enough that the lack of more rear grip was problematic if you really used it in corners.

The 1974 Carrera had the 2.7 engine- modest, yes. It had the good exhaust and short gears, and that extra rear grip. It was closer to the Euro Carrera than it was to the US 911S. There were a few more tweaks the ROW Carrera had but the significant stuff has been mentioned.

In 1975 the obvious body changes and better wheel/tires made people really notice the US Carreras. The 1974 6+8x15s and ducktail were not pleasing to a lot of people's tastes. The esthetics of the 1975 car were a lot more appreciated. I think it was the looks that saved the 1975 cars. It certainly wasn't the performance compared to the 1974 Carrera. The poor engine was strangled with those awful thermal reactors and the higher gearing just exaggerated the lack of power. UGH.

[alwaysflat6s]

[It's either this or I pay attention to edition. At this pay rate it is hard to edit.]


Values and desirability?

I personally think the 1974 US Carrera has a lot more going for it. Until a decade ago I had only driven examples with modded engines or large engine swaps. I spent some time in a completely stock example and was prepared to dread it. I was pleased to discover that it still had a really nice, peppy, feel and it was a lot of fun to drive. Sure, it was modest compared to a ROW '74 Carrera. But, most important, it was still a nice driving experience. I hadn't expected that. I liked the car. I tried to buy it!

1975- The only good thing is that most of these were modded a long time ago. If you were to find one with thermal reactors still intact it would either be extremely low miles and probably parked for a long time.. or .. blown up. Most have modded engines or swaps.

This begs the question. Matching numbers??? On these cars.. well, I understand that people like the idea, but I find it almost pathetic. These are not great engines, even the non-thermal reactor examples. Talk to someone that puts a lot of miles on them. You are pretty much in need of a total overhaul at the same miles as an SC might be considering a valve job because of modest leakage from the guides.

I personally find it hard to accept that the value of a 911 Carrera is less desirable because it's modest performance engine has been replaced with a far superior engine. I do accept that it is no longer stock, nor is it matching numbers, and I realize that my opinion does not represent the majority. I think this also represents the emerging collectivity of these cars vs the more traditional enthusiast ownership of the majority of these cars. What does all this really mean.. in the real world.. about value? You tell me.

A few years ago I bought a 1975 Carrera. It was a pretty nice car but needed engine work. In this case it had a 3.0 SC engine but had been parked so long there were issues. My brother went through it $$$ and in spite of the slightly higher gearing it was a FUN driver. I really think the 3.0 engine was a fantastic upgrade. Not only was it a lot more powerful, the long term reliability and durability is so superior that I have a problem understanding rebuilding a 2.7. That car got part traded on a particularly tasty 911 which I foolishly sold a few years later.

I still have a 1974 US Carrera. Yes, it is modded. It has a very well thought out 3.0 SC engine in it since at least the early 80s. The particular engine was built to take advantage of the then PCA rulebook and uses the big fuel system with the later higher compression pistons, early exhaust, etc. The car has minor suspension tweaks but is largely stock otherwise. Since I have owned a bunch of these, I feel confident to say that this might be THE ideal engine for one of these cars. You open the lid and it looks stock. The performance of this engine feels very much like a good MFI engine. Yes, really. I still remember the first time I drove this car. My good friend owned it and wanted me to drive it and give him my impression. At this point in my life I had a lightly tweaked 73 RS and a well modded 930. I dreaded driving this low performance thing and telling the truth about my impressions. It was modest compared to my beasts, BUT it was a real pleasure to drive in the real world with very spirited GO and throttle response that I had only previously experienced with excellent Webers or well adjusted MFI. 20 years later I own this car and it still is a real pleasure to use in the real world. Unlike my.. fast.. cars, I can use it around other traffic and, using a small amount of adult judgement, not worry about terrorizing other users of the road. It is a very sweet combination.

While I am at it I might add that I also have an early 911 also running an SC engine. This one also performs well, but it lacks that wonderful feel this one has. The engine in this other car is totally stock. Even the exhaust wasn't swapped. I have largely stored this car as a future project. I even have a built 3.0 engine for it. However, I also have a complete early exhaust and a few other bits and am tempted to tweak this engine as it has so much easy potential to feel great. Right now it does have plenty of go. It just lacks feel- and throttle response. The rest of the car is well set up with suspension and brakes but the engine just doesn't feel lively. I am mentioning this for those of you that might own similar cars with similar swaps. There are tons of these and I suspect a lot of these with SC swaps haven't been enhanced. It makes a huge difference.


I am still torn about "numbers matching". I understand that some of this recent fixation is because the European buyers have problems registering cars with engine swaps. Here in the US that isn't much of an issue. It is more the originality freaks that have made such a fuss that it is spilling over to the general Porsche populace. This used to be mostly a "Corvette thing". I used to chuckle about their addition to this. Now I see it more and more with Porsches. To me, this is sad. Every time I have had a "purist' chastise me for modding a 911 I have thought of Ferry Porsche. These cars would be NOTHING except interesting antiques if the factory and the enthusiasts hadn't continued to modify them and improve their performance in every way. I suppose at the end of the day you have to decide which camp you are in.. the collector/concours crowd or the enthusiast crowd. To me, the purist is one who wants their example as Ferry would have intended and I will tell you he constantly modified and improved his beloved 911s. i have no issues with those who wish to keep their examples dead stock but I believe they are completely out of line to suggest that those who improve their Porsches are doing anything that the factory hasn't been doing all along.

I confess that I am still unsettled about this matching numbers game. Yes, it really IS a game. If you know the right people you can get your bare case stamped to be identical to what the factory first assembled. It is no more original than any other engine swap but it does have the appearance of matching numbers. So, a good fake is OK?

I have the opportunity to buy the original engine from my Carrera. It is very much worn out and way over priced. I admit that I have considered it anyway. I know that I will sell my car and it may matter to the next owner. Tho, I would hate to see that sweet 3.0 replaced. To me it would just be an oily lump of aluminum taking up space. I know that at some point it will go away and I will lose the opportunity to make that claim to a future owner. I will sum up my feelings about it: arrrrrrrgh! There. I feel better.


Am I biased? Of course I am. I have owned and moved on from a lot of 911s. I have enjoyed most of them for their unique characteristics. I have usually sold them to be able to experience what it is like to have yet another type of 911. Yes, they can be that different and all have their ups and downs.

I don't know if this is particularly helpful to you who are considering one of these cars. I suspect the obvious body changes to the 1975 MY cars will continue to make them almost as desirable as the 1974 MY Carreras. I feel the 1974 MY Carrera is MUCH more desirable and really a fun, satisfying car to drive[ we are talking about the stock examples here]. Most "experts" writing about these cars fail to differentiate the significant differences between them and tend to suggest that they aren't anything but flares and stripes on a 911S. I have to wonder how many they have driven.. how many they have owned.. how much they even know about the differences. Another big arrrrgh to these IDIOTS.

Much neater cars than their current reputation. These were from the days before the Porsche marketing IDIOTS ruined the term "Carrera".

My last comment is that a lot of you suggest inaccurate things about the specs and most of this is available online for verification. It took me decades of saving articles, books, and looking around for documents to have this knowledge and it is easily available to you easy and for free. A little Google will go a long way.

JR

[spooldup]

Alwaysflat6s, great assessment on the cars. I too have owned quite a few (28) 911 & 930 cars over the last 3 decades. I have my "drivers" in the garage that come & go but one that will never leave my hands is my Euro 2.7 Carrera. I lightened it up and as noted in my previous post just an M&K IROC exhaust & ITG air filters on the stacks and 8 & 9 x 15 frosted finish fuchs. This is by far the best sounding and fun to drive 9 car I have ever owned.

[spooldup]

Now has 935 mirrors on it, Figured I should post a pic

[914agogo]

also worthy of mentioning is that the 74 US Carrera had aluminum suspension components F&R while the the other 911's did not.
the scarcity of its low production numbers is a big factor in collectability. As enthusiast we drive them and require good power and handling, of course the newer the car the better, right? as Ferry would say.
One does not shell out $100K plus into a 55 356 cab for its performance by today's standards.
nostalgia has a lot to do with it, but again scarcity and expensive builds drive these prices. the 74 US Carrera is no exception, it will always command more interest than a plain 911S. just my .02 cents

[alwaysflat6s]

For all my meandering about these cars, I failed to add that... whatever we may think of the prices.. the factory MFI '74 Carreras ARE quite special to drive. Here in Calif they have been difficult to own as they weren't legal for the longest time. A friend owned one and sold it out of state as there was no way it was going to pass smog. I would have loved to buy it, but I presumed he sold it for the same reason I didn't buy it. The state finally allowed them under their temporary rolling 30 year exemption.

If you are reading this and wondering.. YES, buy one if you like them and can afford one. It is the rare older 911 an enthusiast can really enjoy without having to mod it. BTW, the factory also built a few MFI 1975 and 1976 Carreras. In Calif we can't legally register/use the 1976 model. You do need to understand that one reason the production petered out was that the 1976 Euro Carrera was mostly 3.0 CIS cars. Why? Well, $$ was some of it, but mostly the 3.0 cars had virtually the same performance with smoother running and better economy/emissions. The were the what evolved into the SC [Super Carrera].

Also, I must ask: ERIC? Is that a FACTORY build sheet or the dealer's window sticker? I can tell you that officially and in all my documents the 7+8s were not supplied new by the factory. I am aware that what the factory states is not what they always did, but if I am going to start quoting something different, I need documentation. Can you attach a factory build sheet so I can have some clarity on this?

Last: ALL 1974+ Porsche 911s have the upgraded aluminum suspension. This is not unique to the Carrera. It is one reason why a regular 1974 911 makes a great base for a project car here in California. Build it as you please without the emissions hassle. [Please don't think I don't care about clean engines. This DA#N state requires my 32 year old 930 to smog FAR cleaner than the specs it was originally built for. Not only that, it is very difficult to accomplish this without mods.. but THAT is also not allowed unless you use CARB approved parts..and there are NONE for 930s as there aren't enough of them to warrant the hassle of getting parts approved by this state. Miserable situation.

JR