What to look for in an '89 Carrera 4?

[kingcrowing]

I'm planning on checking out this 89.5 carrera 4 coupe:

http://www.rutlandmotorcars.net/1989_Porsche_911_142735480.veh

The dealer said the following in an email, I'm worried the small oil leak could be a sign of future issues:

"The magnetic bra is removable. *There are no real cosmetic issues with the car. *It is in very good condition. *There is no rust on the car and the underside looks very good as well. *There is a small engine oil leak. *Over the last 45 days the car has dripped a spot the size of a silver dollar. *I don't consider that to be a real issue in a car that is 23 years old."

[vracer]

Unless you really want a 4, and in Vermont you may, I'd pass on on the 4, at least the first year. I "think" I remember that the four wheel drive improved dramatically in '91.

[kingcrowing]

Yeah, the 4 is a selling point for me, I won't be DDing it but I like having it and there really aren't many of this vintage on the market in VT.

[NewfieMZ3]

Any research I have done on these has told me to stay clear of the 964 C4, especially the early ones, very heavy and costly to repair..........much improved for the 993. Also cylinder head leaks due to lack of gaskets.

[kingcrowing]

I really like the 993, but the prices are just outrageous right now and I really the look of the 964 over the SC & 3.2 Carrera.

[carjmark]

As per previous comment, 89' through mid 91' 964's had a problem with leaking head to cylinder seals and were improved in mid 91' to an o-ring seal. What I've been told is Porsche updated cars if leaks were "wet", many other cars have been updated by owners. Depending on what shop you ask, some say it's only a matter of when they'll leak and some say if they haven't leaked by now they won't. I would either buy a later car (Bruce Anderson's book gives serial # change and I don't have w/me) or be really cautious with PPI and/or upgrade documentation. Especially if you pay someone else to do the o-ring cut-outs, associated mods and the "while we're in here top end you could easily spend $8K. To me it's just not worth it .

[vracer]

"King",
I really like 964s, and would probably have bought one if I could have found a good one. They are fairly scarce because we were in a recession at the time, so not many were sold. One of the features that I like is the airbag(s?), but this car ain't got it. Do some (a lot) more homework before deciding on this car. The engine & clutch issues are fairly straight forward and should remain fixed if they were addressed. The four wheel drive can rear its ugly head any day.

[kingcrowing]

Vracer: they didn't have airbags till '90, not a big issue to me.

Well, I checked it out today and it was awesome. The condition in & out is fantastic, it drove like a champ. Much more visceral and intense than my M3, it sounds awesome and is such a joy to drive.

Everything looks good to me, they had records from its last visit to Daniel Jacobs Porsche in CT. They fixed a bunch of little things (new breaks, windshield wipers, etc.) and said it needed the 75k mile service (it was ~7k overdue), oil leak at power steering pump, oil leak at timing boxes, cam seats and cam housings.

The dealer has a Porsche Master certified tech and he said that he would address all of those issues and made me an offer that sounded pretty good to me. I told him I wanted to sit on it a bit and mull it over before I made a decision, and I may make a counter offer to try and get the price down just a bit more.

[kingcrowing]

Here's the response, they ran a compression test. Does their response seem legit or not? I guess they didn't do a leak down test. If what he is saying that putting some miles could fix that first cylinder I'd be ok, but I could still use that as a negotiation point for the final price. Should I say that I need a leak down test to check if that cylinder is ok?

Quote:
Just as a reminder, this car has not really been driven since last fall, aside from out little jaunt on Monday. *Having said that the compression test yielded the following results:

Cyl#1 135 psi

Cyl#2 143 psi

Cyl#3 155 psi

Cyl#4 149 psi

Cyl#5 157 psi

Cyl#6 153 psi

Porsche Specs say the cylinders should be with 10 psi of each other. *With the exception of Cyl#1, this holds true. *Cyl#1 may need just a simple valve adjustment to correct this. *Our Master Tech James (you met him on Monday) believes this discrepancy may also exist because the car hasn't been run that much in the last couple of months and may just need some road time to relieve carbon build up in that particular cylinder. *At present we are thinking some fresh gas, an oil change and a few miles will correct this problem. *If not we are prepared to adjust the valve.

[phheitlinger]

Just sold my 89 C4, 80K miles that was involved in a front end collision. Be very wary of "small oil leaks" as they grow to become very big leaks over time. Ultimately the vehicle required a complete rebuild ($8500). Following the rebuild I had no oil leak issues.

Owned the car for 14 years and loved it. Never any issues with 4wd system. Make sure the air is converted to 134A.

Earlier comment about no airbags: Somebody turned left in front of me at an intersection. ABS breaks worked perfectly as well as seat belt. Car took a good lick in the passenger side front quarter. I walked away with no issues at all.

[TV74911S]

Hey Nick:
I've been looking at 964s on and off for the past two years and had a PPI done on a '91 C4 w/80K miles last summer. I used a shop I've known for 20 years who specialize in early air cooled 911s and are pretty conservative. Despite the fact that they weren't close to the seller (much like your situation) I took the time to drive the car to their location. Given the known problems with 964s, I figured an ounce of prevention was worth a pound of cure. The ensuing PPI revealed a number of very interesting things.

The good news was that there was no oil leaking from the head gaskets. (My shop is of the "if-they-aren't-leaking-by-80K miles-from-the-head gaskets-they-will-never-leak" school of thought). While they did see some oil leaking, they didn't think the leaks were major nor that they needed to be addressed immediately. What they did discover was a cracked CV boot, a respray of the car except for hood, roof and engine lid (unbenownst to the owner and likely done as a result of a keying) and a leaking power steering seal.

From what I was told, seals on power steering racks can't be fixed - the whole unit needs to be replaced. My shop quoted me a price of $3800 to do the job using new rack, not counting the cost of having to buy new tires (which the car needed) and an alignment - both of which needed to be done when the power steering unit was replaced. I figured I was looking at a $5K expense for this alone. I mention this, because you had indicated an oil leak in this area and that the dealer was going to fix this. Be sure you know exactly what is leaking and how they intend to fix this. As I have discovered, this is another common issue with 964s.

I factored these repairs into my discussions with the owner and countered with a price about $5K lower than what he was looking for which he accepted (I ultimately decided to pass on the car). In doing some subsequent research (Rennlist I think), I found that there is a pretty good source for used ps racks for 964s that many folks opt for. The cost savings are substantial (not sure of the reliability though).

As others have said, the price on the '89 in Rutland is too high. I have been tracking the prices of these cars for the better part of two years and C4s with no issues and the amount of miles you are looking should be listing no higher than $23K. Ones needing a head gasket repair should be listing between $15-$16.5. Ones priced between $25-$30K sit for awhile (even C2 coupes) and eventually come down to the mid-low $20s.

Finally, for what it's worth, my shop considers the C4 AWD system in 964s to be bullet proof - the system in the car I took to them had no issues what-so-ever.

Hope this helps.

[kingcrowing]

Tony,

Thanks for all the information. Part of the reason I've been leaning towards this car over some others is because they're willing to take my M3 in as a trade - but I'm meeting a guy this weekend who is very interested in buying it outright which would give me more options.

Since I also live in New England I really like the idea of the Carrera 4, and I thought it was very fun to drive around twisty roads, so it's worth the little extra weight and mechanics. I've heard a lot of people say that the AWD system is an expensive component that often has issues, but from people who actually own them I've only heard good things.

I was originally planning on getting an SC or 3.2 Carrera, but after seeing this 964 I'm really liking how much more modern they feel, build quality in the interior seems much more substantial than the older cars I've looked at.

I'm also considering a 993 C4, but I haven't seen any for sale locally (except for a 40k mile C4S in Boston but he's asking $48k ouch!).

Anyways, I asked the dealer to do a leak down test yesterday and I haven't heard back yet. If the results are mediocre (15%+) I think I'm going to just pass on the car, I don't think I want to pay $10k for an engine rebuild. If the results come back solid (<10%), I'll make an offer but I'll keep in mind the points you mentioned.

EDIT: After writing this, I see a really nice 993 in Oregon listed here for only $28k...

[notfarnow]

I picked up a '91 964 C4 a little over a month ago, and have been using it as my DD ever since. Lots of "netsperts" will tell you why the 964 c4 is to be avoided, but speak to people who have been DRIVING well-bought examples (not cheap dogs). They are *great* cars, mine impresses me every day. I drop my kids of at daycare in it every morning, run errands, get groceries. And its AWD system is ASTOUNDING in heavy snow, especially with the locking differentials. You just won't believe the snow you can drive through... it's incredible.

For what it's worth, 26k seems quite high for that car. I posted a "wanted to buy" ad for a 15-20k 964 c4, and had several great cars to consider in that price range. In the end I bought a 91 with 60k miles for 21,500.

[Ricardo morales]

An aftermarket warranty