Oddball eBay Car...thoughts?

[trader220]

Porsche : 911 Porsche : 911 | eBay


Appears as if the facts stated about this car are a bit off as I know them.

Porsche sold plenty of cars in the US during 1985

No 911's were 3.5's and it says 3.2 on the docs.

DP did not supply parts to the Porsche factory

the Z in the VIN number has nothing to do with any special factory wishes car


Correct me if I am wrong?

Thanks

[Macroni]

My father always told me to bite into gold coins to make sure they weren't chocolate ......

[timchar]

Originally Posted by Macroni

My father always told me to bite into gold coins to make sure they weren't chocolate ......

That's great advice he gave you. I'm going to use it on my boys. Thanks, Tim

[trader220]

I sent a question and the answers I got were that Porsche didnt import any Euro cars during that time, welllll duhh.

Then the answers about the engine where dismissed

[bwall]

Trader 220 I think you are right. .. ... .. the seller needs to read his own documents a wee bit more carefully.

1) The original invoice (in German) clearly shows a 3.2L motor, not a 3.5L.
2) The original invoice also makes no mention of rear spoiler delete and rear fender factory air vents. . . . seems to me like that would've been mentioned.

[Macroni]

Not the first time this seller has been questioned concerning documentation or accuracy.

[dienstuhr]

haha... auf Deutsch, "Sonderwunsch" is spelled with an "S" not a "Z"...

In any case I'd love to see the factory invoices.

Cheers

d.

[bwall]

Dienstuhr: I think that the original factory invoices in German were displayed in the auction. Or was that something else?

[techweenie]

Many stories to be found...

Inspect and loose the car or don't inspect and get a dog????

[mycarrera2.7rs]

Guys just got wind of this.
First thank you for your input
As stated the car is a correct M491 and pretty much as stated in the listing and confirmed by it's inclusion in the turbo look registry and Norbert was kind enough to give me the factory spec
He also confirmed via email the the 4th Z in the chassis is part of the sonderwunsch program and the invoice from Hans Schroeder confirms the Factory added options such as the rear fender slits and the fact that new engine lid was installed without rear spoiler giving it the appearance of a M470,
Although Norbert confirmed it was not made as one.
I think that there is a confusion between US spec imports, and private party ROW cars imported through
EPA & DOT conversion shops.
So basically as a US spec car you could not get the Zonderwunsche program,
Please feel free to contact Schroeder directly.
As far as the DP mirrors they were installed at the Factory or maybe by the Main dealer, either way they were installed from new.as for the engine beeing a 3.5 l that was
per PO.
That said it is without the only Porsche supplied from the Factory in this spec.
I fail to understand the negative comments on a car that you have not seem or carried out due diligence and research into this particular vehicle.
Enough conjecture, if you are not in a position to back up your point of view then have the respect and courtesy to keep your unsubstantiated comments to yourself.
If anyone can prove and back up their views, the I am prepared to entertaining solid proof to the contrary.
If you are unwilling to accept the weight of evidence then provided, then there is no reasoning with the usual suspects who love to sling mud as opposed to have a positive attitude
To what clearly is a very unique and interesting PORSCHE..
All the best. JP

[tom84930]

It's hard to believe the bidding is already at $19,000 with several days left. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

[trader220]

There are VIN experts on Pelican with far more experience then I but I am fairly certain the Z has nothing to do with the "Special Request" or "Sonderwunsch" or more commonly know as "Special Wishes" shop at Porsche. I am quite sure that access to the work done at that shop was not restricted to ZZZ cars. Porsche is quite well known for the fact that for the right amount of money you could have anything done and many US clients ponied up.

Without trying to sound like a jerk, if you are selling the car I would expect that the claims you make should be authenticated by you. I have a pretty good depth of knowledge in air cooled Porsche's having bought and sold around 30 cars over the last 20 years, and to the best of my knowledge Porsche did not offer a 3.5 liter option even via the Special Wishes or requests program. The DP mirrors aside since they are but a minor point.

The turbo look registry is not authorized by Porsche and is simply a list collected by a private individual. There is quite a long running debate on rennlist over the validity of several cars on the list which the care taker of the list classifies as factory turbo look cars.

As far as the importation of zzz VIN number cars Porsche never ever officially imported any of them to the US in any year. ZZZ is the code for ROW cars, what is the point you are trying to make be stating that?

In any event it appears to be a interestingly optioned or built car and IMHO its reaching the fair value mark at the current bid. Now being eBay it would not surprise me to see higher bids but then again we all know what its like selling a car on eBay.

[dienstuhr]

Thanks for weighing in, Jack.

The VIN shown in the auction is only 16 digits, is that an error? Can you tell us the correct VIN?

d.

[6300 RPMs]

I see it listed in this pic.

[gregwils]

There is also no M491 option code on this invoice provided by the seller. This is where a Certificate of Authenticity could add some value to the sellers claims.

Originally Posted by SKYNYRD

I see it listed in this pic.

[bwall]

"as for the engine beeing a 3.5 l that was
per PO.
That said it is without the only Porsche supplied from the Factory in this spec. "

hmmm. . .. but, I think it wasn't supplied from the Factory in this spec--it clearly states that on the invoice: 3.2L

Please correct me if I am wrong, but as I read the invoice it was delivered by the Factory with a 3.2L motor. Anything could have happened in the meantime, of course, but when it left the factory, it had a 3.2L motor in it.

Don't let the commas and periods fool you--the continental Europeans like to swap them. So, the invoice reads 3,2L but we in North America write this 3.2L. Just as the final price was 67,982.28 DM, not just a hair under 68 DM.

[mycarrera2.7rs]

Yeah I forgot the S after the F....thanks for pointing that out and for already having resolved it.
In case you have not heard of Norbert Franz, he is the founder and site manager
on Turbo Look Registry cars:

Turbolook-Register - Home

and he was the first person I contacted when the car came around,

Here is a copy of the email I got from Norbert on the 9th of February this year, and which was mostly included in the ebay listing:

Hi Jack !


Porsche gave an special M code for these Airvents only 1989 ! - before it was a special " z " order from "SONDERWUNSCH Programm" ( Special order department - today Porsche exclusive) you see that little "z" on the sticker !

Here is what is stored with the car :

TLR-Certificate : VIN: WP0ZZZ91ZFS101379



One of the rare factory - TURBO-LOOK !
already listed on Turbo-Look Register at Nr. '2263'!


Modelyear : 1985
Cartype : 911330 - 911 Carrera Coupe
Country : C00 - Country equipment Germany
Colorcode : A1A1 - black 1971-1993 - black Top
Paintcode : L700 - black 1971-1993
Colorcode inside : 87 - Special Leather interior - Color of choice
Carpets : 5FV - carpets black

Enginetype : 930,2 - 911 Carrera 3,2 l 231 HP - 170 KW - 63 E-K 00001>10000
Engine-Nr. :
Gearboxtype : 915,72 - 911 Carrera 5 gear - 74F-G 0001>10000
Gearbox-Nr. :



Code Discription
M197 Higher amperage battery
M220 Locking differential
M261 Passenger side mirror - electric - plain
I327 Radio Blaupunkt "Koeln"
I383 Sport seat - left
I387 Sport seat - right
M454 Automatic speed control
I491 TURBO-LOOK (930Performance body + chassis)
M559 Air conditioner
M567 Windshield green graduated tint
M650 Electric Sunroof



You see i have come pretty far meanwhile...


Best Norbert

so it is pretty much clear cut between the TURBO LOOK REGISTRY information,
and the Dealer invoice showing the work carried out at Porsche AG. that it is ,what it is.

Many thanks for the posts with actual valid content,

JP

[trader220]

Yes and both that "invoice" from the importer of the car and the registry list the car as a standard 3.2, safe to say at this point its not a 3.5.

Whether its an actual turbo look or not is still unknown, either way it appears to be a nice looking car.

[Nate2046]

Originally Posted by mycarrera2.7rs

Many thanks for the posts with actual valid content,

JP

No, thank you for reluctantly and begrudgingly correcting misinformation in your ad when forum members dare to ask questions. If you're going to claim value from rare factory options you need to have more evidence to back them up than 'the po said so' and 'I'll prove it when you disprove it'. Your ad is sketchy and you need to learn how to better respond to questions/doubts.

[jsoderbe]

Hi,

The ZZZ has nothing to do with a Sonderwünch program. That was merely to fill the gap in the VIN to reach the number of signs needed here in Europe. The US cars got a shorter VIN, but usually the ZZZ number is visible, e.g. behind the gas tank. At least it was there on my -86 US Carrera. That the car in question still retains its ZZZ VIN on the title just means its not federalized in the US.

Just noticed that the ebay ad show the wrong VIN compared to the invoice. Should be WPOZZZ91ZFS101379 not, WPOZZZ91ZF101379. Or is it WP0ZZZ91ZFS101379 instead of WP0ZZZ91ZF101379? Can't tell if the third digit is a 0 (zero) or an 0....

The 4th Z I have no idea about.

However, it looks like a nice car, and according to the description it has the valuable turbo brake system, and turbo suspension, even though no pictures show that. I havent seen a factory M491 with fake Testarossa vents yet though. Wonder what database the turbolook guy has access to when he can find out information not on the factory invoice?

Porsche buyers are usually well educated, especially the overseas buyers looking at US Ebay. IMHO the description of this car will make potential buyers run in the other direction, and the car will probably sell for less.

Reg. the 3.5 l engine, cant you get sued for making a statement like that if not true? You most definately would here in Sweden, and we dont have 0.000001 % of the number of lawyers you have in the US....


Regards,

Johan