Price Affect with Non Matching Engine

[Irish911]

This question concerns a 911T Targa (1970). How much would the price of the car be diminsihed if the car did not have a matching number engine. The engine it has is correct for a 70 Targa (911/07) but the number does not match that supplied by Porsche (could they have made a mistake?). The VIN number plates are all there and all match. Porsche did not have the transmission number so could not check. The car is in pristine condition, no rust, paint and chrome look very good (no chips, cracks, orange peel etc), interior completely redone to original. Would the price be less by a certain amount ($5-10K maybe) or a percentage? Thanks.

[Irish911]

OK, that was a little long winded. Basically, If a car does not have its original engine, but it is correct for the car, how much does this affect the price of the car?

[TargaT]

I think it really depends on the car but I would say 25% would be a reasonable number. Good luck

Joe

[PropellerHead]

The COA isn't perfect but I unless you are the original owner, the likelihood that the engine could have been replaced sometime over the last 40 years is pretty high. That makes original, #'s matching engine vehicles more and more rare. Thus, the COA carries a lot of weight even if it isn't 100% to be trusted.

As a 911T, this is less critical than with a 911S. Ultimately it depends on the end user and next owner's desires. In the end, if it has the correct type engine and the rest of the correct bits (like original type Zenith carbs) the serial number difference is something only the 'weenies' or speculative buyers (buying as an investment) care about or place a high value on. Those same buyers would be turned-off by anything which has been replaced or restored by any means other than factory correct. So unless the car is otherwise 100% as-delivered by Porsche in 1969/70, it falls in-line with the rest of our 'mutts' which have been enjoyed for 40 years. I wonder who here has the original air in their tires?

With a 'correct' type but incorrect serial number engine I think the value is affected by only a few thousand dollars on an average or even above average driver quality car. The most perfect unrestored survivor 911T with the same situation maybe a $6-8k delta. On a 'freshly restored' condition (typically these are not as-delivered in many ways) car, perhaps a $5k delta.

My car for instance has the correct engine serial number but, like you, the COA doesn't have the gearbox serial number specified. I'm not the original owner and I know the gearbox came out once for a re-fresh (I have a receipt from PO who had the car from '74 until I bought it) but it certainly appears as the original to the car. I can't confirm that though since the COA doesn't have the number and I'm not the only owner of the car in history. Does that unknown subtract from the value? Probably only if I actually sell the car which isn't in the plan!

[Irish911]

Thanks for your reply Chet. Helps a lot. WRT the carburetors, they are Webers. I was able to speak to the next to last owner and he told me he put in the Webers because they are easier to adjust than the Zeniths. I understand that Webers were installed in some of the earlier 1970 911's. The engine number in the car is only about 300 numbers later than the one that should be in the car. The car started its life in Arizona so I have no way of finding any info on previous owners unfortunately. Does anyone know if Porsche exchanged engines if the first owner had issues after purchasing? I know Mercedes did this in the late 60's, early 70's.

[vracer]

Irish,
I would bet that it was a Porsche change or screw-up. 300 numbers out of all the thousands is too much of a coincidence. Also, in those days it was not unusual for a car to sit around & not be "born" at the same time as its peers. COAs are notoriously inaccurate.
The hit on the price? Completely depends on what the buyer wants to do with the car. Maybe $1K for a driver to a 'No Sale' for a National Concours car.

[comintern]

All these cars came with the same engine (911t, 1970my). Its not like the difference between 80,000 built with a 350cid and 150 with 426hemi in the same MY (for pony cars matching #'s are paramount). Here, the difference is between model designations and the motor type is factored in the price already. IMHO, like the post above, if its not going to be a show car, dunworryboutit.

[Six Gun]

25% less when you buy , nothing when you sell it!

[Irish911]

Thanks guys (and gals?). It's too bad we can't track this info. The correct # engine would be nice, the correct engine, I guess is the next best thing. It would be nice to know who swapped the engine, Porsche or a PO. How long does Arizona keep records?

[E Sully]

From what I've read, Porsche replacement engines were unstamped. Sounds like a PO swapped engines.

[techweenie]

On a '70 T Targa, the engine number should be more or less 1.5X the VIN number. They are going to vary +/- a couple hundred numbers. The engines all came off one assembly line; the chassis off of 3...Targas, Stuttgart coupes and Karmann coupes.

Chances of your engine being within 300 is too much of a coincidence out of 6000 of those engines built. So erroneous CoA is a possibility.

Just one thing, though. Some charts show 911/07 to be a coupe engine type designation, not Targa. http://www.911specs.com/VIN70s911.htm

[Irish911]

Thanks Techweenie. I checked out that web site some time ago as well and it has a number of errors, the first of which are the VIN #'s. 1970 Vins should be 9110....... based on everything I have read. Mine is 911011..., which isn't even listed. Most they have listed for 1970 look to be 1971 numbers. All other publications show my engine should be a 911/07, which it is.

[techweenie]

Yeah, that's why I disclaimed it as 'some charts.' Lots of people posting stuff on the Interwebs and leaving it forever, uncorrected. But as I said, even CoAs are in error, so there's at least a chance you have the matching engine.

[Macroni]

Depends upon the final presentation of the car. If it is a hotrod the motor will have minimal impact on the selling price. Most part doesn't even enter the equation.

If motor is factory correct but non-matching yet the car is a #1, still minimal impact.

The significant discount will hit if the car is generally lacking in all measurements of quality.

[Irish911]

Thanks everyone for thier replies. Not to get off topic too much but I am fixating on my engine number and am becoming more convinced that Porsche replaced it, probably before it was even picked up by the first owner.

MrBMW2002 just listed a numbers matching '70 911T Targa for sale, which is the same year as mine. His was built Nov '69 (VIN ending in 0910) while mine was built Oct '69 (VIN ending 0437). All good so far. His engine number is 6106721. My engine number is 6106040. Porsche however says it should be 6105722, only 318 apart. Therefore both my engine and the engine Porsche says I should have were built within the same month, since MrBMW2002's engine number is 700 after mine and his car was built one month later. I can't see someone being lucky enough to find an engine at some point later in its life with a number that so closely fits the correct time period.