Ethics Question/Help - Selling a car.....

[porschecab]

I wouldn't be posting this if I didn't want or accept constructive criticism. Thus I am opening myself to whatever folks believe. My mom always said I was brave. There is a fine line between being brave and being careless/stupid.

"If you a scared mutherfuc_er, go to church."

"I tell my kids, what is the difference between a hero and a coward? What is the difference between being yellow and being brave? No difference. Only what you do. They both feel the same. They both fear dying and getting hurt. The man who is yellow refuses to face up to what he's got to face. The hero is more disciplined and he fights those feelings off and he does what he has to do. But they both feel the same, the hero and the coward. People who watch you judge you on what you do, not how you feel."

So with that said - here is my story.

Buyer agrees - deposit - bails. Pissed.

I posted a 1986 'rust free/accident free' tub here on the Pelican. I included several photos. Within a very short period of time an international buyer sends me a note that states (I will paraphrase now) "I will take it". He wanted time to gather funds, arrange/quote on shipping, etc. He started asking me several questions as to what is and what is NOT included, even though the ad clearly stated such. It was clear at that time - this guy was a potential tire kicker. That is when I requested a non-refundable $300 deposit (10%) for me to hold the car, giving him time for what he needed to do. I agreed to take PayPal for such - balance in a wire or cash upon pick up.

Being out of the country - he wanted to get the car shipped from the San Francisco area to the LA area. I was able to get him a figure well below others, at $350. That was the SAME day in which he stated "I'll take it". He says his transporter will bring me CASH when he picks up the car. Right. Moving on: He sends the $150 portion or deposit. I have to explain - this is only HALF of what was discussed - surely he knew this. A few days later, the other $150 comes. Non-Refundable deposit is in. I mark is PENDING/SOLD.

This is when the stories come up. I need time for this, that, and the other thing. Starts asking me is this included, is that included, how about this, what about that. He asks for additional pictures of the engine compartment, the front trunk, etc. In one of my pictures, I hadn't noticed something the buyer did - a small hole where the battery goes. I snapped pictures of this area (see below) for him - and discussed this with a pretty high end shop here - and it was determined it had been an acid leak from a battery - not a rust hole. Days goes by without the remaining funds from the buyer - nothing. Yesterday - he wanted a shot of underneath the car, to verify it hadn't gone through. I snapped, sent and verified - top hole only, nothing through the bottom. The hole is 0.5" in diameter.

Fast forward/get to the point;

Buyer stated "I'll take it", sent a non-refundable deposit and then asked for additional pictures.

Upon such - it was noted I had missed this superficial (in many folks eyes) hole. An easy and inexpensive fix, I am told. But, not disclosed.

I think this is a chicken sh_t way of backing out - but he is saying this is the REASON to back out. In trying to resolve this, and the weeks this transaction has elapsed, I offered $150 reduction - just because.

Jacka_s does a chargeback on PayPal for his $150 and $150. I want to blast him on all of the forums, but I want to be sure I am not the one here making the mistake. I get the nondisclosure of the tiny acid hole - but it is NOT a rust hole.

a) Is the buyer warranted his deposit back, despite it being non-refundable?
b) Did I mislead anything?
c) Is this REALLY considered a deal breaker for anyone buying a TUB?
d) With the amount of work going into the car as sold, how could anyone NOT expect something so small to be uncovered? C'Mon Man.

Thanks in advance for your help and insight - trying to do the right thing, just tired of the antics.

Dan - Photos advertising the car.






The non-disclosed, deal killer, acid leak hole:







Tell me - am I being a dick if I'd like to keep his deposit? Not an option though - as he filed a NOT AS DESCRIBED with PayPal this AM.

[SilberUrS6]

After all my "blather" on this issue - I'm with you.

It looks like you were straightforward as to the terms and conditions, and that you were not attempting in any way to deceive anyone on the condition of the tub.

As an aside, I think that $3k for that tub is a reasonable deal. If that's any solace.

[911chas]

paypal is the problem along with the douche bag
wire transfer or no sale

[Matt Monson]

I would keep the guy's money. And there is a reson I don't do pay pal except with friends and always always get a bank wire from an overseas buyer.

[bwall]

Your 'buyer' was a re-seller. He sent you $300, knowing that he could always get it back from PayPal. In effect, he 'locked up' the car at no cost to him, believing that he could place it easily.

For whatever reason, his deal fell apart (meaning that his buyer never pulled the trigger) and he doesn't want to buy it on spec. So, he looks to find any excuse possible to back out. Because it's a car, he can always find SOMETHING, no matter how petty.

If it wasn't this hole, it would be something else. If his deal had gone through, he wouldn't have asked another question.

[bwall]

Think about it: this tub needs ALOT of work. He knew this from the get go. So what was he thinking 'I'll need 1000 hours and $30k to fix it' and then three days later 'uh oh. I'll need 1015 hours and $31k--can't do that!'? Of course that doesn't make sense, that's why your posting your question!

He probably has a body shop and had a customer who said 'I want an X to use for Y' and your tub fit the bill. He locks it up and is then trying to make the sale--which he cannot for whatever reason. And now he needs to get out of the deal and thus the question.

I had a tub for sale once. A German body shop owner expressed interest, but not really too excited. After about three months he calls and HAS to have it. Can't wait any longer, and what can I do in price? I lowered my price some, but in retrospect should have raised it $250--he still would have paid it as he had finally 'sold' a restoration and needed a tub.

[Tremelune]

Seller beware. It seems like you probably should have known better than to get involved here. When I'm buying or selling, I just don't deal with people that seem off. It's possible I've lost a clean sale or a good buy over the years, but as far as I know, everyone has come out happy on the deals I've made, and that's valuable to me.

I agree that he probably would have found some reason to back out, if not this hole...I mean, it's a stripped tub of metal--There is clearly a ton of work to be done to make it a car. That said, are you gonna pay a lawyer over this?

[CountD]

Dan,

Just by reading this you are over-thinking this and questioning yourself as whether you are doing the right thing. You know who does this sort of thing? An honest person, that's who. And that's exactly what you are.

a) Is the buyer warranted his deposit back, despite it being non-refundable? No, not according to your contact. However it was nice that you offered half and you didn't even have to do this.

b) Did I mislead anything? No not that I see

c) Is this REALLY considered a deal breaker for anyone buying a TUB? Not at all, he (the buyer) is a game player and time waster and couldn't walk the walk after talking the talk.


Don't waster another second of your mental energy on this or this guy. You did the right thing. Now the right thing is to forget this clown and move on. Blow this off like a paper hat and forget it. It's not worth thinking about anymore. Sell the car to someone who really wants it and won't waste your time. Blasting this guy won't do a thing - people like this don't care anywhere near as much as you do. Shake it off - and next time have him wire the money or Western Union it or something. Stop questioning your own honesty when faced with someone who can't make up their damn mind.

[Tremelune]

+1 to all that.

[wayner]

As an impartial bystander, the car does not look rust free.

Almost rust free would be a better description, especially since it is rusted in a common area for these cars.

For reference, I once went to buy a car that was "rust free" When I reached underneath and a chunk of frame rail came off in my hand and the car looked structurally unsound, the seller said, "that's just surface rust."

On the part of the seller, I would be careful with the use of those words.

On the part of the buyer I wold be careful relying on an assertion without seeing evidence.

Given that, I would say it is an understandable misunderstanding by both buyer and seller.

[vinyl_tien]

Here is original AD(I direct print out my screen for record using/ Date 2012/12/10 AM 12:16)




Here is modified AD(Date 2012/12/15 PM 11:14)




Can you tell me why did not post that red circle word in original AD? and now why are you change your AD?

If you do that in first place, believe me, I will not trouble you.

You said it is a un-refundable deposit, I agree that if chassis in rust free condition.

But, after I find out it has battery acid rust hole. I think no one will agree this is a rust free chassis. Why I can not take my money back?? You brake the deal first!!!

[mreid]

There are always two sides to every story. Having sold dozens of vehicles, some running some not, I recommend you are as accurate as possible. In this case I would have said appears rust free but ask questions if you are concerned about any areas. Frankly, at this price I would expect some issues and the tub would need a thorough inspection and repair as required.

All that said, the buyer took you at your original word and sent a deposit. You then changed the ad after he discovered the hole (by the way, an acid hole is a rust hole). You could argue that he paid and then discovered the problem and that's too bad. Personally, I'd give him his money back. I also would have taken the car with that rust hole for that price.

[914agogo]

It gets deeper....Question is...there are 5 days between the dates, what does it mean? Did Dan put the car back available 5 days later with the new disclosure after your bout with him?

when exactly did you notice the hole? how long was it after when you decided to bail on the deal?

more information always modifies the story thank God for chronology

btw the red you surround is surface at the edge of the tank, if this is why you broke the deal you are too picky for this kind of resto, sorry! no sympathy here.

[914agogo]

well well well it sure looks like on the 4th day or the 14th Dan did the right thing and made the car available again and this time he corrected the disclosure albeit on the 15th.
It takes time and information to form an opinion.

so Vinyl you are not out of money but out of luck trying to make us feel sorry for you.

[vinyl_tien]

The reason why Dan charge his AD, it is a easy question, because paypal took investigation that day(12/14)!! He is covering his as*.

[914agogo]

Originally Posted by vinyl_tien

The reason why Dan charge his AD, it is a easy question, because paypal took investigation that day(12/14)!! He is covering his as*.

no no no it is you who is planting grass seeds to cover your brake marks!
after reading the 2 other threads about this I'm trying to figure out why you want to drag the seller in the mud..

take a good look at your hand when finger pointing, notice that 3 more fingers are pointing at you.

[914agogo]

another thing...why did Paypal favor you, as far as I remember deposits are NOT protected unless this was an item sold thru Ebay......was it?

[CountD]

At this point -

1) The Buyer backed out of the deal
2) The Buyer has or will get his deposit money back
3) The Seller lost the deposit
4) The Seller has updated the classified with more detail
5) The car is for sale again

Both parties should walk away from each other at this point and consider it a done deal. It doesn't matter right now about who is right/wrong and both people should consider it some sort of lesson. Whatever that is...

[76_rookie]

Sounds like you flipper trying to flip each other off. Deal was to good to start with....now second flipper is backing out. I can't believe I read this post and the other post. Not getting this part of my life back....

[mreid]

At this point - <br>
<br>
1) The Buyer backed out of the deal<br>
2) The Buyer has or will get his deposit money back<br>
3) The Seller lost the deposit<br>
4) The Seller has updated the classified with more detail<br>
5) The car is for sale again<br>
<br>
Both parties should walk away from each other at this point and consider it a done deal. It doesn't matter right now about who is right/wrong and both people should consider it some sort of lesson. Whatever that is...

^^^^^This^^^^^