Purchasing a car on Ebay . Need insight

[997ajk]

First let me just begin by saying that I live in Canada, and have done many transactions both in-person and online. Sold quite few cars. I've recently been in a situation where I was completing a transaction with a private citizen in the US, and I want to get some feedback on what was being asked of me. It might work diferently in the US (although I don't believe so) but here's the sitiuation:

I just won this car on Ebay and paid the $1000 deposit.

Vehicle: 1991 Porsche 911 Carrera 2 / Carrera 4 (WP0AB2961MS410253) (btw. carfax is clean but autocheck shows 2 accidents on the car)Porsche : 911 964 in Porsche | eBay Motors


When the seller contacted me to say that the deposit was recieved we began to discuss the terms of the sale and how to proceed with the transaction. He provided me with a listing of local shops to have the PPI done and I said that I would get back to him the following day.

We agreed that the PPI will be preformed and I indicated a shop I wanted to have the PPI done (pelican recomendations) and he agreed he would bring the vehicle there and complete the PPI.
Part of our ongoing discussions concerned the transfer of the vehicle across the border. I sent him the relevant information for the customs officials required and said that either he or I would need to fax the documentation including photocopy of the title to customs and form (sort of like a bill of sale) 72 hours prior to vehicle export - this was the customs requirement, as I do not want to spend 3 days for customs to clear the vehicle .All I got from him was that title would not be turned over until the full balance was wired or cheque be mailed to him for clearing.

I explained to him in our ongoing discussions that I would not be wiring the money, instead I would be providing a bank draft upon viewing the vehicle and making sure that all was clear, handing it over to him. He kept insisting that I wire the money and that the bank draft is not verifiable, and requires 5 days to clear. I explained to him that bank drafts are certified by the bank and that I would be happy to go with him to a branch to verify the funds were there prior to him turning over the keys and my driving off with the car and the title. He was insisting that I wire the funds otherwise I would not be getting the title.
Copy of the title will not be shown/faxed until I (again) wired the money in full or mailed the draft and it clears.

We were at a stalemate. I needed a copy of the title (not even the original) to be faxed to customs so that I could cross with the vehicle and he wasn't willing to fax it to them until I turned over the full balance. I asked then that my deposit be refunded because I was not comfortable with him having the car, the full payment and me just a couple of emails saying that this transaction was going to take place.

I'm not sure if this is common practice in Porsche/US car circles, to just wire the money? Wait till drafts clear? Any thoughts?

Cheers,
Adrian

[mreid]

Last Porsche I bought on eBay, the guy sent me the actual title prior to funds. That is very unusual and overly trusting. He should send you a copy of the title. To not do that is ridiculous.

[Bristol]

Personally I see both sides of the story here. As a seller I would also insist on a wire transfer, especially when dealing with an out of country sale. Having a bank draft means nothing. Verifying the funds are in the account also means nothing. There is just too much fraud with certified bank checks now that I would not trust them even a little bit. Wire transfers on the other hand are very safe, so I think the seller is right to insist on that, I would also.

On the flip side, it's crazy of the seller to not provide you with a copy of the title. You are right to insist on a copy to help you with customs.

Tough situation. I would not give up and try to negotiate some kind of deal with the seller to get that title. Then, once you've inspected the car, have the bank transfer the money. Once the seller confirms the transfer you are good to go.

Kirk

[Matt Monson]

What Kirk said. Cashier checks are so easy to counterfeit and once a real cashier check is cut there are no more funds in your account. Bank wire is the safest medium for the seller.

On the title issue sounds like the seller is a little paranoid, like the people here who are asking details about their barn find car but refuse to share the vin fearing their new car can somehow be stolen. He obviously thinks faxing a copy of the title puts him at risk.

Or maybe there is something fishy here. Maybe he just bought it, is a flipper, and is jumping title and doesn't want you to know until it is too late to back out.

I wouldn't walk, but I would push more on the seller more on the title situation.

[dienstuhr]

Title situation is definitely important.

At first I though the OP was being a bit unreasonable by refusing to wire the money, then I read the auction terms:

"Payment methods accepted:

-Wire transfer in US funds.

-Cashier's Check (certified from US or Canadian bank) or money order.

-Cash (in person)."

You do have some negotiating leverage here by referencing this provision in the auction terms. You could agree to send the $$ by wire in exchange for the seller sending a copy of the title. I think the seller is not being reasonable but you may need to be "extra-reasonable" in order to get the deal done. Some sellers are just like that :-)

Cheers and good luck, the car looks great.

d.

[biosurfer1]

A lot of sellers in the US are paranoid by the ongoing scams around here. It used to be counterfeit cashiers checks from random banks but now they are using real banks in the US which makes it even harder to trace.

What I don't understand is people saying they "Call the bank to verify the funds are in the account." That does not happen. The second that cashiers check is drafted, IT becomes the funds and they are withdrawn from the account. If you make a cashiers check for $10,000 and you have $10,001 in your account, if the buyer calls to verify funds are in the account, they will be told there is $1 in that account. You need to call the bank and verify the actual cashiers check is valid. They keep a copy and make reference to it so it should be a matter of looking it up and seeing if its been cashed yet. Even then, though, there are scams of counterfeit identical checks being made and cashed after you verified but before you could cash it.

I understand both sides here. Sounds like the seller is being a "bit" unreasonable but sending your car off and holding an often counterfeit piece of paper in your hands is a bit scary these days.

[Matt Monson]

Just went through the seller's feedback on Ebay. He's obviously a dealer, which makes me even more curious why he is being weird about the title.

[CountD]

I have bought several cars on eBay, some better than others. In every occasion I have insisted a copy of the title be sent to me in PDF, fax, photograph or otherwise. I have told them if they wish they can send a copy with the words "void" written or photoshopped on it. I just needed to make sure it was the CAR I was buying, and most importantly that it was in the SELLERS NAME (or clear and not from some leasing company).

Anyway, there is no excuse on not seeing the title. There has to be a little give and take between the two parties. I would not send any funds (wire or otherwise) without seeing a title first. I have wired money (this is no problem), but I needed to see the title first and foremost. Don't do it unless you see the title. This is my advice and this is how my boss used to do it before wiring (on expensive Ferraris).

There has to be some give and take between people. Sending you a copy of the title puts him at no risk, especially since you are in Canada, and since he's not releasing the car.

[CountD]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

Just went through the seller's feedback on Ebay. He's obviously a dealer, which makes me even more curious why he is being weird about the title.

Make sure the title is not signed over to someone else - like this dealer - and not registered to the person you are buying it from. The person who is still on the title (seller) is still the rightful owner. Demand to see the title or no deal.

Demand the title, get it, make sure it is clear (and can be signed over to you), make sure it is NOT SALVAGE or has any other marking (yes, do all the Carfaxes, etc). Then a wire is acceptable.

[997ajk]

Deal is off - I got the deposit back.

Regarding title/ownership:
-Seller claims to be selling for friend, and not to be a dealer.
-Title is in friends name and his wife.
-He requires the payment to his friend/wife account otherwise title or copy will not be produced
-was fine with paying after PPI was preformed

In Canada bank draft is not easily cancelable or refundable unless it is reported stolen to police (30days wait time) or original draft is produced. Draft is good as cash and can be verified by calling the bank. Reason for using it,its that it is free for me and offers better exchange rate. ($22k = $23.1k can )

Wire transfers are not instant and funds over $10k are flag and reviewed by FBI, and are held for up to 2 days. But I was open to this option, but I know seller would not release the car. Which now puts me in position of storing a car for next 2 days with the seller.

Cash was another option but from what I know about Detroit, I did not feel all that good about it.

[Matt Monson]

Big shaky head on that seller. He's sold or brokered way to many sales in the last year to not be considered a dealer under the law of pretty much any state in the union. If he is selling the car on behalf of someone, he should be putting that out in front of potential buyers. Maybe the actual owner/seller is the one who is skittish, but he's no doubt earning a commision on the sale and as such his job is to make it work smoothly between both clients, seller and buyer. He blew this one and for good reason lost the sale.

Keep shopping. You'll find the right car for you.

[997ajk]

Thanks guys for your advise and insight. I am sure something will come up sooner then later.

[geshaghi]

While I think it is very reasonable for a buyer to ask to see a copy of the title in order to verify that the seller owns the car, I have seen some scams recently where a copy of the title is obtained and then modified to make it look like the scammer owns the car. This happened to a friend recently who was selling a MBZ SL65. He advertised the car a few places and received a query from a buyer who seemed serious. After several phone discussions, the buyer agreed to purchase the car, pending verification of the title with his bank (to enable a loan to be processed, which can be completely legitimate). My friend scanned and emailed a copy of the title to the prospective buyer, and never heard from him again. A few weeks later, someone called and asked where the car was located, noting that a car with the same VIN was advertised by someone else on the other side of the country. The new seller had posted photos of another SL65, but used my friend's VIN and sent this other buyer a copy of the title, modified with another owner's name and address. I've heard of similar types of scams where copies of titles are produced to help create the aura of legitimacy for a car offered for sale, usually at a slightly below market price. While I would certainly want to see a copy of the title before I sent full payment, I can see why someone would be cautious about sending it.

[1968SWTs]

That transaction is covered for up to 50K by ebay.
The protection is misleading and does not cover most forms of fraud, but it does cover payment without receipt of title / vehicle very well. It also covers title branding issues, etc. But does not cover, for example a car claimed to be "rust free" that has rusted completely through, or a 911T disguised to be a 911S.

it is standard practice to wire first, but make sure your method of payment is 100% compliant with ebay rules. Read the exceptions very carefully. It is actually worth having an attorney look at it if you are worried.

eBay Motors - Purchase Protection - Overview

Remember auction "wins" are non-binding for vehicles and houses.
Ebay staff will confirm this.
Sellers will tell you otherwise, but it simply is not true.
This is why ebay numbers can be inflated and you can pay a premium on ebay. (bidders are often not "real")

again,
read this very carefully
eBay Motors - Purchase Protection - Overview

[Tennessee911]

30 yr retired banker. If a bank calls a large bank to verify a certified or cashier check, the bank will say they are unable to verify anything other than the routing number of the check. Checks are easily forged. You should have offered to meet him with cash if he would send a copy of the title.

Once money is wired, it is gone and you can not get it back. Checks have caused problems for a number of yrs. i wouldn't take one from anybody.