3.2 Carreras- how many miles matter?

[CA_WhaleTail]

We've all seen these cars described as having 'bullet proof' engines, but at what point do the miles matter from a resale perspective even if the compression/leakdown numbers are reasonably good? (And recall the owner's manual do say to expect the engine to use oil....)

Is there a mental cutoff at 100K, 150K, or more? Is a 80K car worth a whole lot more considering that its 24+ years later and that a lack of run time could be an issue?

What does the market really say?

[wgerow]

There are others better qualified to speak on this, but IMO and based on what I have seen there is a distinct mental cutoff if your mileage is six figures and starts with a 2.....but I think with many folks the cutt off is 20-40K below that.

I don't agree with this induced mental cutoff, and would much rather have a well maintained, unique color, excellent shape, well documented car with 190K than one with 110K, red, no docs, signs of wear, tear and lack of maint. Just my opinion.

As these cars age the mileage on available cars is going to increase. Obvious statement I know, but that doesn't mean these are cars that are bad or should be avoided.

[christiandk]

Does milage matter on the longhoods - not really, but documentation, color and condition does.

Not totally comparable, but you get the idea.

[EMJ]

Comes down to the maintenance done on the car. You may run across cars that have 80k on the clock that don't drive as good as some with 180k on them. My car has 195k on the original motor and has never been opened. Pulls harder now than at 110k and the leakdown numbers are still solid. New plug wires, dis cap, rotor, stay on top of the oil. You'd be surprised how long they last.

Might be obvious, but also consider your anticipated annual mileage. If your looking for a weekend cruiser, you might be able to get a good deal on a high mileage car that's been taken care of.

[COLB]

I think it depends what you mean by "matters". It probably doesn't tell you a lot about how reliable a 25 year old car is going to be, but there are definitely mileage bands that affect marketability.

Obviously, condition, records and options make a huge difference -- but mileage does matter if those factors are held constant. After looking at hundreds of 3.2s and SC for sale in the course of buying one last summer (and since), and excluding Turbos, Turbo-looks, speedsters, track cars, slant noses, or other heavily modified cars, I would offer a swag:

0-29,999 -- "museum pieces" with up to 2-3x price premiums if still "stock" and original, and records back the mileage.

30,000-59,999 -- "garage queens" with x1.5 price premium if properly maintained or with evidence of refurbishment of bits that deteriorate with age.

60,000-99,000 -- "low mileage"; these are the universe of cars that have been driven regularly, but only seasonally and maybe on weekends. etc. This vehicle is the "standard" for market prices. Most have had no major work, so you are looking at major repairs during the next few years, which puts a ceiling on price. There will be a $4-5k premium at this mileage with evidence of substantial freshening (top end, clutch). These sell extraordinarily fast if well maintained, with records.

100,000-129,000 -- "average" this is your average 911 for sale. Assuming good "driver" condition, requiring no immediate major fixes, you will be $2-3k below a "low mileage" vehicle with similar colors & options. But with great records and evidence of significant engine/tranny work, you will be $2-3k more than a "low mileage" vehicle without it.

130,000-159,000 -- "well driven"; these cars will price slightly below market value of low mileage cars if enthusiast owned, rebuilt, and maintained, but at $5-6k discount otherwise -- and will sell slower due to the need to find an educated buyer who knows that they are getting. Can be a great bargain if you buy one "sorted" or a money pit if the mechanicals are on their last legs.

160,000-199,000 -- "high mileage"; the issue with these cars is that the mileage is so high, it will scare off a significant portion of the market -- particularly first time Porsche buyers. You can sell at a $4-5k discount to market if enthusiast maintained and a rare, desirable color and options -- but it will likely take a long time. A guards red targa with no records or major mechanical issues may be worth more as a parts car.

200,000+ -- "grey beards"; these are tough to sell at any price unless it is in truly exceptional condition and has been restored to a high standard (top & bottom end, trans rebuild, all new lines & suspension, new paint, and clean interior) and there aren't a lot of 3.2s or SCs that have been because they just aren't worth enough. Otherwise most of their value is in parts -- $7500-12000, and most are probably future track cars, hot rods, or due for parting out.

Just my short term observations.

[wgerow]

Originally Posted by COLB

160,000-199,000 -- "high mileage"; the issue with these cars is that the mileage is so high, it will scare off a significant portion of the market -- particularly first time Porsche buyers. You can sell at a $4-5k discount to market if enthusiast maintained and a rare, desirable color and options -- but it will likely take a long time. A guards red targa with no records or major mechanical issues may be worth more as a parts car.

200,000+ -- "grey beards"; these are tough to sell at any price unless it is in truly exceptional condition and has been restored to a high standard (top & bottom end, trans rebuild, all new lines & suspension, new paint, and clean interior) and there aren't a lot of 3.2s or SCs that have been because they just aren't worth enough. Otherwise most of their value is in parts -- $7500-12000, and most are probably future track cars, hot rods, or due for parting out.

Just my short term observations.

Not so sure I agree with these last two. I have seem some really nice 180K cars that are in very good condition, pull strong, documented, nice paint, etc. that I would much rather pay a little more for than some of the 120K cars that are out there. Just my opinion

[Matt Monson]

With all but the end of 3.2l production being 25 years or older, the Europeans have started to influence this market. They don't care about mileage as much as we do and are ready to buy a high mile car and put money into it because they just don't have the same inventory that we do.

[kinein]

Well i bought my 86 911 with 356k miles on it continue to drive it til about 530k miles. I drove it like i stole it every day. The only reason why i swapped motor and trans is because i dropped some money into the paint job and interior. So why not change the motor. I am not affraid with high mileage 3.2's. I would do it again.

I dont care about what people say about being affraid to go past 200k, they dont believe in there bullet proof engine, that it is capable of hitting a million miles without any problem. Just change the oil , put gas and go.

[COLB]

Not so sure I agree with these last two. I have seem some really nice 180K cars that are in very good condition, pull strong, documented, nice paint, etc. that I would much rather pay a little more for than some of the 120K cars that are out there. Just my opinion

I think a lot of people share your sentiments -- particularly those who are really familiar with the cars -- but that is a pretty small segment of the buying market. Did you buy an 180k+ car, or are you just saying you wouldn't exclude one out of principle?

There are still enough cars out there that you can be selective. You can find a 120k car "in very good condition, pull strong, documented, nice paint, etc." for just a few thousand more than the comparable 180k, and that premium is worth it to most buyers.

Unless you just "have" to have that paint to sample zanzibar red coupe and are going to keep it forever, the 180k is not a bargain. And if you want to sell it down the road, a lot of buyers won't see things the same way.

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by COLB

I think a lot of people share your sentiments -- particularly those who are really familiar with the cars -- but that is a pretty small segment of the buying market. Did you buy an 180k+ car, or are you just saying you wouldn't exclude one out of principle?

There are still enough cars out there that you can be selective. You can find a 120k car "in very good condition, pull strong, documented, nice paint, etc." for just a few thousand more than the comparable 180k, and that premium is worth it to most buyers.

Unless you just "have" to have that paint to sample zanzibar red coupe and are going to keep it forever, the 180k is not a bargain. And if you want to sell it down the road, a lot of buyers won't see things the same way.

The informed buyer sees the top-end rebuild at 165k and the trans rebuild at 170k, the fat stack of receipts showing regular and careful maintenance, and knows that 180k car is plenty good, and worth MORE than the 120k car with no receipts to speak of, or all receipts, just nothing that indicates freshened mechanicals. All kinds of stuff goes into a buying decision, and a premium can be had for cars in top shape, even if the miles seem high.

Now, when comparing a 90k mile car to a 210k mile car...

[COLB]

The informed buyer sees the top-end rebuild at 165k and the trans rebuild at 170k, the fat stack of receipts showing regular and careful maintenance, and knows that 180k car is plenty good, and worth MORE than the 120k car with no receipts to speak of, or all receipts, just nothing that indicates freshened mechanicals. All kinds of stuff goes into a buying decision, and a premium can be had for cars in top shape, even if the miles seem high.

I generally agree that the best 180k car is worth more to an educated buyer than a ragged 120k car. But that is a false choice. Those are not the only two cars available for the Porsche buyer's money.


1) "educated buyers" willing to spend $20k for cars with 180k miles are a very small segment of the market.

2) At that price point, you can get a very solid SC with 60k fewer miles with the same receipts and mechanical work.

3) that makes cars over 160k slow selling -- particularly if priced at a premium. Most buyers are going to want to pay $12-15k for a 180k mile car, no matter how much work it has had.

The basic point I was trying to make is that all other factors being equal mileage is a significant price discriminator, and its affect tends to occur in mileage bands.

[wgerow]

Originally Posted by COLB

Did you buy an 180k+ car, or are you just saying you wouldn't exclude one out of principle?

Yes
I had been looking casually for well over a year. It was the highest mileage car I had considered but was in superior condition cosmetically and mechanically to the other cars I had looked at. Also included 20+ years of documentation. I still religously look at cars locally and online.....I still think I have an excellent example.

[CA_WhaleTail]

COLB's summary is excellent.

One variable that is clear from others is whether or not the car is to be used and enjoyed on a regular basis, or tucked away in a garage with the hopes of price appreciation. If the latter, then the car is falling in to a 'collector' class and the miles are critical. Otherwise, the moral of the story is to get a solid example (good maintenance, not damaged) and have fun. After all the Porsche owner's manual doesn't describe how to maintain a car that is driven out of the garage onto the driveway for washing, dried, and re-parked.

I suppose the downside to the higher mileage/ gray beards is that once you have one, its not an 'investment'...though that's a delusional term for many owners. So as the 3rd owner of a clean 212K mile original engine garage-kept car that's never left SoCal this thread has been very helpful.

thanks to all, and perhaps some one can start a mileage poll to see how the grey beards are holding up.

[COLB]

Originally Posted by wgerow

Yes
I had been looking casually for well over a year. It was the highest mileage car I had considered but was in superior condition cosmetically and mechanically to the other cars I had looked at. Also included 20+ years of documentation. I still religously look at cars locally and online.....I still think I have an excellent example.

Very Cool. You were obviously very selective about what you were looking for -- taking a year to make your purchase. I would submit that if you ever attempted to sell the car, you would need to find a buyer with the same preferences -- which is a small subset of the market.

How would you compare the price you paid to what a similar car would garner at lower mileage? Did you get it at a discount?

[wgerow]

Originally Posted by COLB

I would submit that if you ever attempted to sell the car, you would need to find a buyer with the same preferences -- which is a small subset of the market.

could be very true.....but all the drivers are increasing in mileage

Originally Posted by COLB

How would you compare the price you paid to what a similar car would garner at lower mileage? Did you get it at a discount?

Probably paid 2-3 grand less. Partly becasue of the mileage and partly because of where it was located. It was poorly advertised also. To me the mileage discount was slightly countered by the condition and history. Just my opinion of value.

[Rot 911]

Mileage does matter to most buyers. BUT, being someone who has torn down a 3.2 engine, I can tell you the only inherent weaknesses are valve guides and, to a lesser extent, head studs. My 3.2 with 133,000 miles needed valve guides, but the bottom end and cylinders were still in almost new specs. Knowing these cars, I would be more concerned about buying one with 60-100K miles than one either above or below this mileage as that is when the valve guides are most likely to start wearing out.

[gregwils]

Originally Posted by COLB

I think it depends what you mean by "matters". It probably doesn't tell you a lot about how reliable a 25 year old car is going to be, but there are definitely mileage bands that affect marketability.

Obviously, condition, records and options make a huge difference -- but mileage does matter if those factors are held constant. After looking at hundreds of 3.2s and SC for sale in the course of buying one last summer (and since), and excluding Turbos, Turbo-looks, speedsters, track cars, slant noses, or other heavily modified cars, I would offer a swag:

0-29,999 -- "museum pieces" with up to 2-3x price premiums if still "stock" and original, and records back the mileage.

30,000-59,999 -- "garage queens" with x1.5 price premium if properly maintained or with evidence of refurbishment of bits that deteriorate with age.

60,000-99,000 -- "low mileage"; these are the universe of cars that have been driven regularly, but only seasonally and maybe on weekends. etc. This vehicle is the "standard" for market prices. Most have had no major work, so you are looking at major repairs during the next few years, which puts a ceiling on price. There will be a $4-5k premium at this mileage with evidence of substantial freshening (top end, clutch). These sell extraordinarily fast if well maintained, with records.

100,000-129,000 -- "average" this is your average 911 for sale. Assuming good "driver" condition, requiring no immediate major fixes, you will be $2-3k below a "low mileage" vehicle with similar colors & options. But with great records and evidence of significant engine/tranny work, you will be $2-3k more than a "low mileage" vehicle without it.

130,000-159,000 -- "well driven"; these cars will price slightly below market value of low mileage cars if enthusiast owned, rebuilt, and maintained, but at $5-6k discount otherwise -- and will sell slower due to the need to find an educated buyer who knows that they are getting. Can be a great bargain if you buy one "sorted" or a money pit if the mechanicals are on their last legs.

160,000-199,000 -- "high mileage"; the issue with these cars is that the mileage is so high, it will scare off a significant portion of the market -- particularly first time Porsche buyers. You can sell at a $4-5k discount to market if enthusiast maintained and a rare, desirable color and options -- but it will likely take a long time. A guards red targa with no records or major mechanical issues may be worth more as a parts car.

200,000+ -- "grey beards"; these are tough to sell at any price unless it is in truly exceptional condition and has been restored to a high standard (top & bottom end, trans rebuild, all new lines & suspension, new paint, and clean interior) and there aren't a lot of 3.2s or SCs that have been because they just aren't worth enough. Otherwise most of their value is in parts -- $7500-12000, and most are probably future track cars, hot rods, or due for parting out.

Just my short term observations.

Good summary. Of course, there are always exceptions, but as a general rule this is a great assessment on mileage. If you have owned a 180k mile car for 60k miles, that is completely different than chunking down hard earned cash on a new-to-you 180k mile Carrera. You can change the oil every 1,000 miles and 180k mile crank has probably rotated about 500 million times (do the math), that's a lot of rotations.

[Matt Monson]

Unless I am only driving it 1000 mi a year or tracking the car, why on earth would I change the oil every 1000 mi?

[DCinVA]

If I were looking for a 3.2, I would be looking at well maintained cars under 150k miles. The reason for this is that I know they will go another 150k + miles, and I would get decades of fun out of it. Having said that, my 86 3.2 had nearly 250k miles on it when I sold it last year. It still looked good, and ran great. New owner was happy with the car, and hopefully he still is. The key is finding cars that have been well cared for.

I agree with COLB's summary, but I would point out that the high mileage and grey beard cars can make great daily drivers with reasonable price entry points. The big plus (in my opinion) is you dont worry about adding miles, and you are free to enjoy them by driving them. Low mileage cars sit in the garage, and people look at them and admire them. Nothing wrong with this, it just seems rather...ummm.... boring to me.

[jaygauthier]

What's the ding on cars that are Guards Red?